What to go with - MAC or Windows (PC) - Ajarn Forum

theanimaster · 24th January 2005, 18:19

Hello People! To avoid having lengthy bouts in other sections of this forum about which OS is best suited for you... i'm laying it (all) down here. This topic is open to all - Mac and PC users alike. Afterall, what's a PHPBBoard without a great debate between MAC and WINDOWS users? Let the games begin!

ROUND ONE
For this round, i'll begin with how it is to set up a (hopefully) working machine on the two platforms... starting with the Macintosh OS... the Operating System that runs on all Macintosh (aka: Mac) computers:

Great for Newbies
If you've never used a computer in your life, the Mac is a great place to start. The Macintosh OS is very easy to set up. Once you get your computer, insert the DVD or the software CDs that are bundled with your Mac, and you're ready to go. As with most other Operating Systems, you simply fill out details like the date and time as well as some personal info if you're willing to register your computer online (internet connection required) then and there. Of course, you dont need to register your computer or furnish Apple with your personal details if you don't want to, and you may skip the registration setup and just go onto the System Installation.

The system installation is easy as pie. Click OK and the System installs in about 15 minutes (this was the score on an eMac G4 1Ghz machine with OS 10.3). All Apple computers these days come with DVD drives, so most probably your computer will have a single DVD for you to run the installer. CD versions of the installers will also have come with your Mac.

Once you've finished installation, your mac will restart. Restart takes less than 30 seconds. Note: Less than 30 seconds.

After Startup, your mac may have already have productive software installed, such as Pages, KeyNote, Garageband, Addressbook, Mail... from here you can already Send and Retrieve email, Do wordprocessing, create presentations or even create music! Of course, if you're into entertainment, iTunes will be there already- ready to use (if you've got some MP3s or Audio CDs for it to play and rip).

i is for INTERNET
A useless fact is that the "i" in iMac, iBook, etc. etc. stood for "internet". And why not - all macs these days come with a built in modem (unless you told Apple NOT to put one in) and a 10/100 Mbps Ethernet port. The higher end macs have a Gigabit Ethernet port (incase you happen to have a network connection that goes as fast). Out-of-the box you can plug your mac into a phone line or add dsl to it.. but of course, you need an Internet Service Provider first... but that's not Apple's fault.

Okey, so i've just begun to talk about how great the mac is... this is just the first half of round one.. let me now give my account of what it's like to setup Windows XP, the latest version of Windows, which runs on standard PCs...

If you're a beginner - learn to be an expert
After a couple of hours assembling your own DIY (Do-It-Yourself) PC, you plug it in and stare at a blank screen. Welcome to DOS. Fortunately, you had purchased Windows XP separately for about a couple hundred bucks, and you can use the CD to boot in the Windows Installation Setup (lucky you.. in my time you had to go through installing DOS and partitioning your drives befor you could install Windows - successfully).

Insert CD, reboot. Press any Key to Start up with CD. Duh... obviously *tap*.. Windows will now begin installation, press F8 to continue or some other key to go where you dont want to go *F8*.. Windows will need to reformat your harddrive first... assuming you're computer literate, which door do you choose? Is it a.) FAT32, b.)Compressed FAT32, c.) NTFS, which wont allow you to run DOS when you really might need to... ... ...
If you're afraid to make a decision on your own, just choose the option we've highlighted for you.. and in the future, when you have a problem, THEN you'll know what you did wrong. Going on to the installation...
Please enter your CD Key. If you're running a pirated version of Windows, good luck to you mate - you're on your own when you need updates. *tap-tippity-tap-tap* *Click* ok.. Windows is now Installing, be sure to come back in 15... no 30... no, maybe 45 minutes to click on something to continue... and after that, you may need to click on something else... if you're lucky, an error will NOT occur and you wont have to start the installation process from teh beginning. Finally, after installing, Windows restarts. welcome to windows. A new device has been connected *Logitech Keyboard* Windows Add Hardware Wizard will attempt to install the drivers for your product. *Cannot Find Drivers, please specify a CD, Floppy or the Internet to look for one*, *Cannot find driver* *Have Disk* driver Installed successfully, please restart your computer *restart* Blue Screen: "Your PC has been shut down improperly, you should have used the SHUTDOWN option in the START menu you dolt... now i have to check your disk for data errors... oh and please DO NOT press any key to abort or else you'll be sorry you ever did! *after Windows restarts TWICE* Welcome to Windows.

~whew~ !

A Windows machine starts in about 20-45 seconds depending on your configuration, but you'll have to wait another 15-30 seconds or more if you've installed anything like a network, internet (dial up or dsl) and pretty much any application that has its icon in the Windows bar. Yes.. don't let the Windows desktop fool you - the OS is still starting up after that.

Once you've got your uber-cool Windows machine up, it's time to do some wordprocessing - on NotePad. Oh wait... there are GAMES! cool. Lesse... Mines... Minesweeper...minesweeper2.. oh, i think Solitaire will do - for now. Reminder to self: Purchase latest version of Microsoft Office. Well.. the games don't quite do it.. may as well go online to download some Flash-based ones... or even whole, pirated versions of the big games out there... but first, a couple more installations - afterall.. you DO need to download the latest version of DirectX, and your graphic card's video software...

Live in Fear of the Internet
Ok, TRUE ADSL got me up in just one restart (LUCKY)... Funny i dont remember my mac friend having to restart HIS machine. Anyhoo.. I'm connected and... WTF! Seems slow... VERY Slow! Is this really 2.5MBps?? *After 2 days of getting the info and a fix for some virus that's hit my computer dead out-of-the-box..* Got my firewalls up yeah... so i have to occassionally disable them to install networking software or to run networked games for the first time around... I'm P.R.O.T.E.C.T.E.D. That is, until the next genius hacker deviously creates another "Sasser" worm or "i Love YoU" virus.. FINALLY.... FINALLY i get to download DirectX and the other updates for all the other equipment i've put onto and into my box. FINALLY. *one week later* A new service pack is out. Gotta install it. Micro$$$ says it's got the latest anti-virus and anti-hacker updates on it. But good on me - AUTOUPDATE is on! *CRASH!*

~WHEW!~

So concludes the first half of round ONE. Now for the second half.. reactions, anyone?

discus2000 · 24th January 2005, 20:09

tsk tsk tsk

you're comparing pears and apples... bad student! Repeat with an out-of-the box set from e.g. HP, Dell, Fujitsu or whatever brand name you'd like...

Gluestick · 24th January 2005, 23:50

For those of us who aren't afraid of computers, I think the PC is fine. You also get the option of buying whatever you want for your PC since you aren't limited to what one manufacturer spits out for you. Mac user: Gee, should I get this cute pink one or this lovely purple one? PC user: Gee, you mean there is more to a computer than matching it to my decor? I've always loved the ability to customize my computer to suit my particular needs. We can continue on and on about each side and debate the merits of chip architecture if you wish.

What it boils down to is that each camp has its strengths and weaknesses. People have picked the type of computer they use for a reason. Debating an age-old argument will probably not convince anyone on this message board to buy a new computer. Let people use what they want. If you love your Mac so much, I'm glad. It's like religion. Keep your beliefs to yourself. Is another PC vs. Mac debate really necessary?

Night_Rider · 25th January 2005, 01:13

animaster I admire your energy. I'd have just chucked the post after the 10th sentence or so.

Ok disclosures first. I'm writing this on a PC but it'd be a Mac if I had the cash.

Ease of Use
I gotta go with Marko on this. I think that XP has largely closed a previous ease of use gap with the MacOS and now both are easy for the first time user. Apple's new search technology, Spotlight, may give them the edge when Tiger is released but the skinny is that there are still some bugs in the works.

But regardless if I had Steve Jobs in my kitchen I'd give him a piece of my mind. I don't expect user interface innovation from Microsoft. I'm sorry but historically MS follows the pack. I expect better from Apple. Where is my Star Trek computer with a voice activated interface where I enter my home and say, 'computer play a mambo' and I suddenly hear Tito Puente coming through my home audio speakers. Hell I'd even settle for this digital convergence panacea I keep reading about where all my home audio, video and computers talk to each other and interoperate. Where my OS allows me to load up the latest Jet Li Divx from SuprNova and play it on my home TV with the click of a button.

Kudos to Apple's Rendezvous technology and making it open source but I think the current MacOS and the future Longhorn release should offer more innovative human interface design than new search technology and pretty 3-D icons.

Architecture
To think that Microsoft is still not over the 64 bit OS hump when MacOS X has made the hurdle a year ago is amazing. There are a lot of 64 bit AMD processors sitting on desks just acheing for a 64 bit OS. I think the beta was just released but there is so much more to migrating a platform. Microsoft has to get all their developers onboard. The public has to suffer through that period where developers just quit working on the 32bit versions and focus on the new technology. With proper planning and backward compatibility the transition can be softened. I'd hope MS learned lessons from the Win31 to 95 leap. God those were hard times.

But the point I'm making is that Apple has already done it. Their developers are onboard. Their userbase is converted. Their codebase is 64 bit. If MS drops the ball they're there to whisper in the ears of Windows users that as long as they have to buy a new machine why not buy from the guys who brought you that cool iPod.

I'm encouraged to see architectural innovation at Apple as well. First with 802.11b. First to offer Firewire. First to offer PCI-X standard. First to offer 1.25MHz frontside bus. First to offer liquid cooling standard. It's no wonder than even Microsoft has adopted the PowerPC architecture for the next Xbox. (BTW I predict that will be the final nail that brings games parity back to the Macintosh. Ports should be nothing w/in the same chip architecture.)

Virus
I'm getting long winded myself but just briefly I want to return to the idea that started this thread. Whether you argue that the MacOS is more secure (it was approved by the National Security Administration [the real CIA] in the US for government use) or just not targeted or a combination of both. The fact is that the MacOS at this point is virtually virus and spyware free. As the guy that supports his families PCs I can tell you they all have firewalls, virus protection and spyware monitors running on them but it doesn't mean that they get used or updated. Most PCs on the net are the metaphorical equivalent of a sailor on leave in Pattaya without a condom. They just attract nasty diseases.

The Mac user does not have this experience. It is foreign to them. More and more Windows users are moving for this single reason alone.

Final Thoughts
I enjoy this discussion though it may not be convincing or productive. I would just encourage everyone to keep an open mind. Learn something new. Don't be afraid to walk into the other camp and poke around a little.

marko · 25th January 2005, 20:39

Great idea for a thread, theanimaster, and fantastic response from Night Rider.

More balanced than I am gonna be when I hit back with my reply later!

Added after 16 minutes:

OK... I'll probably write more as this thread progresses but here's my initial thoughts...

First I don't know enough about the Mac OS to compare the two with any degree of professionalism, so I'll listen to the chap that uses both, however!

Windows... (previously mentioned) always slow on the uptake. One arguement against that however is Windows Media Player 10. It's absolutely the very best player I have ever used and I have tried dozens including iTunes etc...

Vulnerable to hacks, viruses and spyware! Arrgh! Bloody frustrating. Points to Apple for security so far...

Better for this, better for that... in terms of actuall usage I'd say that they are both fairly equal. It used to be that Macs were for graphics etc, but the twains have met!

Brand loyalty... How did Mac do it! It's almost scary how they have achieved brand loyalty akin to a witches cult! More points to them!

However!

My two biggest bug bares that leave me clinging to my Window Pains(!) are...

1 - User personalization. Macs are Macs and they belong to Mac and they look like Macs and you can tell they are Macs a MacMile off! Yawn!

2 - The endless variety of small programs that are written for Window Pains that do a small job that I need doing! They aren't being written for Macs.

(Having said that - here's something else I will throw in...

There are not that many programs and games for Mac users but the ones that are out there are usually of a high quality. There are billions of programs for Windows and most of them are dangerous, intrusive or crap (or a blend of all three!)

However this is detracting from the OS debate...

NEXT! :smile:

deebster · 27th January 2005, 18:59

Having used Windows until 2 years ago and a Mac since, I favour the Mac.

The things I remember from windows days that are but dim memories as they no longer apply now are:

- No blue screen of death

- No cryptic error messages "There has been a command exception module configuration error in the file dll..."

- No viruses. Ever. No need for a virus checker unless you are regularly receiving files from Windows PCs and passing them on to other PC users. In other words, you may inadvertently become a carrier, but the chances of your Mac getting infected are pretty small. I've had zero incidents in 2.5 years of net use here, and do not run (and never have) any virus software.

- No spyware

- No Micro$oft (unless you really need all the stuff that Office does (there are alternatives if you just need to do basic Office stuff and now most .doc files are openable by any stock Mac using the 'Text Edit' application). The original version of Office was actually created for the Mac and only later ported to Windows. Apple are unlikely to ever produce an 'Office-Killer' application as they do maintain a few ties to MS and don't want to totally poiss them off.)

Other points

- A Unix underpinning to Mac OS X, which makes for a very stable user experience. And a very good looking one too. Smooth and intuitive.

- Built in Apache web server software. Most web servers are still run on Unix systems

- It works out of the box, like has been said

- Most major software now has a Mac version, except some games. (If you run games more than anything else even the most die-hard Mac user will agree Windows is still the best choice).

- There is only one manufacturer of Macs. So when you buy one you know it is genuine and contains certified hardware. Apple only design and assemble the Mac though - many of the components are made by 3rd party maufacturers. e.g., My iBook has a Toshiba combo drive and Hitachi HD

- Design. When I bought my iBook (here, in May 2002) it was just about the cheapest laptop on offer that did what I wanted it to do, and was smaller, lighter, had longer battery life and looked much better than anything else I could see. No contest, which is why I bought a Mac then, having never even touched one before.

Now I'm on the lookout for a new computer and given the improvement in PC laptops I will still buy another Mac. Nothing I see comes close to the iBook and Powerbook. Some of the Sony Vaio ones are nice, but as a whole package with the OS, no.

And the Mac desktops on offer now I find much more appealing than PCs.

What Windows wins on:

Yes, most PCs are more customizable, allowing you to remove, replace and upgrade hardware components. Apples do tend to be a bit fixed in that respect, but I did replace my iBook combo drive with a faster one last year.

PCs have more software choices, but so far I have only found one thing that I cannot do with the software I have on my Mac, which is to convert a /lit file into a more uniform format. )And since Macs can run Windows via emulation, I could use the Windows progs to do that on my Mac anyway).

- Basic spped. Yes, the numbers do look better on the PC side, but again as stated, if your PC is being slowed by viruses, mis-behaving software and stuff, you may not see all of that speed. Plus, comparing quoted CPU speed between PCs and Macs is not a fair comparison. a 1Ghz Mac way well outperform a 2Ghz PC. The proof of the pudding must be in the eating, not on the tech spec.

So, yes I am biased, but with good reason I believe.

Hope some of this helps anyone considering getting a Mac, or just interested in the differences.

Earlyant · 28th January 2005, 16:23

One thing is likely with Windows, it could go 'belly up' and you may need to reformat and reinstall. So, it's important to make back ups of your important data. Or, use Norton Ghost to make an image of your HDD.

diaw · 28th January 2005, 18:12

Convert the beast to Linux... runs on both Macs, PC's & goodness knows what else...

theanimaster · 22nd February 2005, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by diaw

Convert the beast to Linux... runs on both Macs, PC's & goodness knows what else...

iPods.

Magpie · 27th February 2005, 11:46

I use a Apple Powebook 15' 1.33 running OSX 10.3.6....I did the 10.3.7 update and it slowed my start-up times immensely...I reverted back to .6.

My use is primarily Final Cut Pro HD, Soundtrack and some Photoshop. Other apps that get a mention are Amedeus II ( great for slicing up music) and Livetype (for titles). It's a great platform for graphics.

As for games, well if you use your computer for gaming your wasting your life.

Marmite the Dog · 28th February 2005, 12:20

Aren't Macs still a lot more expensive than Windows based PCs?

I know most of the programs I use are available on both platforms, so that's not an issue. The issue is 'can I buy a mac that rocks for about 20k?'

theanimaster · 28th February 2005, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Aren't Macs still a lot more expensive than Windows based PCs?

I know most of the programs I use are available on both platforms, so that's not an issue. The issue is 'can I buy a mac that rocks for about 20k?'

Well - Add 4k more and you'll have a mac mini. Typically this will last you forever unless you're into heavy graphics and desktop publishing -in which it would last the usual 3 years before being considered 'obsolete' for work.

When a computer is considered 'obsolete' though, it doesn't mean you can't use it. It just means that there are faster alternatives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

I use a Apple Powebook 15' 1.33 running OSX 10.3.6....I did the 10.3.7 update and it slowed my start-up times immensely...I reverted back to .6

Ghhaaaaa! So it's not "just me" afterall! Grrr! How did you revert back to .6?

Marmite the Dog · 28th February 2005, 15:04

But is a Mac Mini better/faster than a 2.5k AMD PC? I'm probably looking to but another PC in about 6 months time and I'd like to try a Mac, but I'm not sure if making the switch is worthwhile.

Also, can you open MS Office files on a Mac?

theanimaster · 28th February 2005, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

But is a Mac Mini better/faster than a 2.5k AMD PC? I'm probably looking to but another PC in about 6 months time and I'd like to try a Mac, but I'm not sure if making the switch is worthwhile.

If you're a PowerUser, and you can get an AMD Athlon 2.5Ghz for less than a mac mini (24k) - go for it. But here's most likely what you'll encounter with your PC, Athlon or not:

Viruses: Are contantly plaguing the net. Careful when you connect to the net - your computer can catch one straight away. You'll also no doubt get a barrage of e-mail that contains nasty viruses. If you download your email through client software such as Outlook Express or Eudora - even worse! Some viruses can trigger themselves through these programs.

SpyWare and AdWare: Like viruses, less dangerous (to your computer) but more frustrating.. these are the same things that pop-up unexpectedly... (example: you're typing an email with your wife next to you and OOP - some free-sex ad pops up and fills the screen!). Try to get out of THAT situation!

Constant System Updating: because of the shocking amount of dangerous files being developed and unleased on the web, you're damned to keep the aliens at bay by constant security patches and upgrades from microsoft. How convenient is it to keep your system up to date with updates every other day?

Crap OS: -if you're running XP. A simple thing like a power outage can give you 3 hours of work getting your computer back up and running. For every generic hardware component you install for your PC you will have to use included software - so be sure you have the discs on hand - and a backup of those discs just incase. Also, you may get the occasional (or is it frequent?) major problem with Windows-updates that can cause your hardware to stop working completely, so be sure to remember to create a "Restore Point" in Windows XP everytime you install new hardware and everything is working harmoniously.

On the other hand, if you get a mini:

Expandability: Close to none. You can upgrade RAM up to 1GB and you can install a larger compact harddrive, but thats about all you can upgrade internally. The built in DVD-ROM may also be replaced, but where are you going to find an equivalent without costing an arm and a leg? Best to go external with any additional upgrades whenever possible. OH- and doing an internal upgrade by yourself will void your warranty - you gotta ask an "Authorised Apple Centre" to do it for you. Not that you really need to - who will ever know? If something breaks, just replace everything you replaced with the original components and send it back.

You cannot upgrade the video card in your mini. You probably will be able after 2-3 years (when it's needed) because of companies like Sonnet Technologies, who develop special, specific upgrades for macs.

You cannot install additional PCI cards. This means additional USB cards - but you knew you can buy a cheaper HUB instead, right? If you ever did have a need for PCI expansion, you're probably a power user - stick with your guns or buy a G5 PowerMac.

The 1.25 Ghz Mac Mini can be overclocked to 1.42Ghz by desoldering one measly jumper on the mainboard. If you've noticed, this essentially turns your $499 mac mini into the $599 mac mini. Really. Of course, it'll void your yadda yadda yadda.. if you're an enthusiast, warranties wont scare you - there are ways to get around them

The mini is Firewire ready. Firewire is the ideal interface for data transfer from digital camcorders and other digital devices.

The mini uses digital video (yeah, like you'll be buying a super-expensive digital display), but comes with an adapter for conventional VGA output.

The mini comes with software included - iLife for handling all your digital stuff from Images to Music and Video, and you can probably snipe iWork off the Apple Centre as well - so you can do desktop publishing. It's not too hard to find other apps for the mac as well - just look around the place you bought your mac from - and im not talking about the Apple Centre

Virus and AdWare Free: You won't loose sleep wondering what your mac's been up to

PC viruses and AdWare were designed for one thing - PCs, not Macs.

Incredibly Stable OS: I've been trying to figure out a definite way to crash a mac. So far the only way i can come up with is if you have an iPod: Put your iPod on HOLD and shut it down completely (by keeping it off for 48 hours), then start up your mac, and immediately open iTunes and plug-in your iPod once the desktop appears. It works sometimes. If your mac doesn't crash then you've got a lot of RAM installed. Lucky b@stard.

The mac mini definitely rocks. You can play DOOM 3 on it without any glitches. Hard to believe on something that small. Speaking of small - i wish Apple had invented the mini 4 years ago while i was still in uni - i would have brought my whole computer system to uni everyday - and because the mini works with any USB peripheral and VGA monitor - no worries! And here's an interesting fact - the mac mini (today) costs less than my 3rd generation iPod ( almost 2 years ago)! Grrrrrr!!!

Quote:

Also, can you open MS Office files on a Mac?

Absolutely! There's a version of Word for the mac - and it's newer than the current PC version too. No problems either - unless it's in thai. If the original was typed with thai fonts, you need a copy of those fonts on the mac (and yes, macs these days can use PC fonts).

Magpie · 1st March 2005, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by theanimaster

Ghhaaaaa! So it's not "just me" afterall! Grrr! How did you revert back to .6?

I reinstalled 10.3, then 10.3.1, 10.3.2, 10.3.3, 10.3.4, 10.3.5 and finally 10.3.6.

It sounds like an exhaustive task but it only took me about 2 hours all up. And now my machine is back to it's best.