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Thread: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

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    Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    "Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher

    By DOUGLAS BIRCH, Associated Press WriterSat Jun 28, 3:08 PM ET
    The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.
    But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?
    Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN — some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.
    "Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.
    David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.
    "If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.
    The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.
    The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.
    Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.
    The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.
    The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions — far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.
    The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million — long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.
    By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.
    Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."
    One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.
    On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.
    The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

    The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.
    In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.
    And so far, Earth has survived.
    "The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.
    Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.
    Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes — collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.
    But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.
    Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field — and eventually threaten the planet.
    Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.
    As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.
    When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.
    Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets — to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.
    The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.
    Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.
    Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.
    The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring. "There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans."

    Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher - Yahoo! News








    August, 2008?

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Suppose we could do well to remember the American atomic experiment at I think Los Alomo's circa 1944 ish.

    Basically the whole bloody great pile of fissionable material was out of control and a mammoth melt down was expected with other unknown factors involved.

    Seems as pot luck and some sterling work by the boffins at the time averted a dreadful disater at that moment in America and ensured the atomic bomb material was availabe to be used against the Japanese where of course we saw the results of an atomic blast.

    Perhaps we are getting to clever for our own good, it could be Planet of the Apes before to long if all goes wrong.

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    I don't know what is with people these days. They have their priorities all messed up. This planet is such a mess with all the pollution, global warming and human overpopulation causing most of these problems and yet these scientists think it's fine to spend 5.8 billion dollars on a concept experiment that might yield some interesting information. Then again, it might be completely useless or even destructive. Go figure. Messed up priorities I say!

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radical Energy View Post
    One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.
    Walter L. Wagner is neither a physicist, nor a lawyer. He lives on the Big Island in Hawaii. He does have a substantial unsatisfied civil fraud judgment against him. He was a minority partner in an aquaculture venture. He sued the company, served his wife, a company officer, with process, and then appeared on behalf of the company, as its "attorney", entering a stipulated judgment. Of course, the whole scam unraveled. It amazes me how this guy dupes the press into believing he has even a scrap of credibility.

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Walter L.Wagner sounds rather like some of the teachers I and probably all of us have worked with over the years,knows it all, but always in a dream world.Con merchants with honours.
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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    So, today, Wednesday they will start up the LHC... Let's hope the critics were wrong.
    Whatever they learn from this experiment, it's money down the drain, science for the sake of science. There are few benefits to mankind or the earth, which is in a state of global warming causing all sorts of disasterous events. And here all these scientists want to do is play games with expensive toys just to see what happens. Idiotic geeks if you ask me.

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Do pop intomorrow if your still here.Otherwise we shall no doubt meet up in outerspace rather than cyberspace.

    ''Beam me up Hadron''
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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?


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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Wow, that was a really interesting read. Someone has done their homework, obviously! So why aren't the headlines in the media saying anything about this LHC today. And where the hell are the protesters? Oh wait, they are out there protesting over silly stuff that they think is so important. I've got a bad feeling about this LHC. Things oftentimes go terribly wrong when scientists experiment with energy. This is the mother of them all. Brace yourself for the Big Bang today!

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Having a 'Doomsday Drink' small party at my house. (It's for when I switch on my new fish tank.)

    Spot the lefties' fear and hatred of technology. They'd have us all shitting in buckets and living in yurts. Wankers.
    Last edited by Anna Key; 10th September 2008 at 15:37. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Largest particle collider conducts successful test

    By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS, Associated Press Writer 38 minutes ago

    GENEVA - The world's largest particle collider successfully completed its first major test by firing a beam of protons around a 17-mile underground ring Wednesday in what scientists hope is the next great step to understanding the makeup of the universe.


    After a series of trial runs, two white dots flashed on a computer screen at 10:36 a.m. indicating that the protons had traveled the full length of the $3.8 billion Large Hadron Collider.
    "There it is," project leader Lyn Evans said when the beam completed its lap.
    Champagne corks popped in labs as far away as Chicago, where contributing scientists watched the proceedings by satellite. Physicists around the world now have much greater power than ever before to smash the components of atoms together in attempts to see how they are made.
    "Well done everybody," said Robert Aymar, director-general of the European Organization for Nuclear Research, to cheers from the assembled scientists in the collider's control room at the Swiss-French border.
    The organization, known by its French acronym CERN, began firing the protons — a type of subatomic particle — around the tunnel in stages less than an hour earlier.
    Now that the beam has been successfully tested in clockwise direction, CERN plans to send it counterclockwise. Eventually two beams will be fired in opposite directions with the aim of recreating conditions a split second after the big bang, which scientists theorize was the massive explosion that created the universe.
    The start of the collider — described as the biggest physics experiment in history — comes over the objections of some skeptics who fear the collision of protons could eventually imperil the earth.
    The skeptics theorized that a byproduct of the collisions could be micro black holes, subatomic versions of collapsed stars whose gravity is so strong they can suck in planets and other stars.
    "It's nonsense," said James Gillies, chief spokesman for CERN, before Wednesday's start.
    CERN is backed by leading scientists like Britain's Stephen Hawking in dismissing the fears and declaring the experiments to be absolutely safe.
    Gillies told the AP that the most dangerous thing that could happen would be if a beam at full power were to go out of control, and that would only damage the accelerator itself and burrow into the rock around the tunnel.
    Nothing of the sort occurred Wednesday, though accelerator is still probably a year away from full power.
    "On Wednesday we start small," said Gillies. "A really good result would be to have the other beam going around, too, because once you've got a beam around once in both directions you know that there is no show-stopper."
    The project organized by the 20 European member nations of CERN has attracted researchers from 80 nations. Some 1,200 are from the United States, an observer country which contributed US$531 million. Japan, another observer, also is a major contributor.
    The collider is designed to push the proton beam close to the speed of light, whizzing 11,000 times a second around the tunnel.
    Smaller colliders have been used for decades to study the makeup of the atom. Less than 100 years ago scientists thought protons and neutrons were the smallest components of an atom's nucleus, but in stages since then experiments have shown they were made of still smaller quarks and gluons and that there were other forces and particles.
    The CERN experiments could reveal more about "dark matter," antimatter and possibly hidden dimensions of space and time. It could also find evidence of the hypothetical particle — the Higgs boson — believed to give mass to all other particles, and thus to matter that makes up the universe.
    Some scientists have been waiting for 20 years to use the LHC.
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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Yeah, this is news. I read that other story two days ago. Thanks, Roger.

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Even if black holes were created, the mass of the black hole would be so tiny that it would 'evaporate' instantaneously.

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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bet View Post
    Even if black holes were created, the mass of the black hole would be so tiny that it would 'evaporate' instantaneously.
    Cnn stressed that. Dont want Switzerland to leave the face of the earth
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    Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and The END of Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radical Energy View Post
    Whatever they learn from this experiment, it's money down the drain, science for the sake of science. There are few benefits to mankind or the earth, which is in a state of global warming causing all sorts of disasterous events. And here all these scientists want to do is play games with expensive toys just to see what happens. Idiotic geeks if you ask me.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerman View Post
    The CERN experiments could reveal more about "dark matter," antimatter and possibly hidden dimensions of space and time. It could also find evidence of the hypothetical particle — the Higgs boson — believed to give mass to all other particles, and thus to matter that makes up the universe. Some scientists have been waiting for 20 years to use the LHC.
    From these experiments they may be able to create infinitely renewable energy. A prerequisite for any hope of clearing up our atmosphere. It may also lead to the coveted 'space drive' engine that would allow humans to leave the solar system and return in their lifetime.

    This is about as big as you can get, they are searching for the fundamental building blocks of the universe.
    We must not confuse statistical probability with some transcendental and utterly compelling force.

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