Becoming a 'real' teacher in England - Page 4 - Ajarn Forum

Cyrille · 29th November 2007, 15:12

^ Well they're, for example, accepting Romanians onto PGCE courses to teach English - with funding.

So it would be a bit daft to exclude a Brit with years of TEFL experience, right?

zehner · 29th November 2007, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrille

it would be a bit daft to exclude a Brit with years of TEFL experience

depends on the uni i guess. EU funding is for all EU citizens so they must have quotas to fill

khru · 11th December 2007, 02:21

Technically you need to be an EU resident for 3 years prior to starting the PGCE in order to qualify for all of the funding etc. As the applications are done online, so long as you can use someones address in the EU for any snail mail there shouldn't be any problems wherever you are at the moment. IME the unis don't really care where you are. They are more concerned with your interest in teaching and ability to pass the course (to make them look good).

If you're offering a shortage subject you'll get a 9k bursary, otherwise 6k. Fees of 3k+ can be paid in cash, or a loan taken out. There are also student grants and top-up loans available. On balance most people are better off on a PGCE course than a GTP course due to being registered as a full time student, having longer holidays to earn extra money, and not having to pay full council tax etc. Lots of GTP students are worked like dogs right from their first week, with minimal "training".

In your situation it may be worth looking into alternative ways of getting into the profession. Schools will employ you as an unqualified teacher whilst you top up your HND to a degree (2 years ft, not sure how long pt). You can then do a GTP or SCITT through them to gain QTS.

As for your overseas teaching experience getting you extra points on the pay scale.... don't count on it. It is often a major barrier to getting a job, especially if you're male . A lot of HTs are very wary of people who have only taught overseas. You may find a sympathetic head who will give you some credit, but IME they are in the minority.

"I can't say I'd be 'impressed' by a Cambridge graduate, either.
Prolly only got in there because he's a toff."

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Wouldn't trust an Oxford graduate tho....

paully · 11th December 2007, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by khru

Lots of GTP students are worked like dogs right from their first week, with minimal "training".

I'd second that.
Also PGCE students are able to get to know other student teachers on their course and in their specialism at the beginning in Sept/Oct before teaching practice begins, which can be a big help if you need someone to contact/share experiences with/ bitch, etc. Being the only GTP in your department at the school (or even the only GTP in the school) can be very lonely. You certainly can't 'bitch' openly to the other teachers who are reporting on you and feeding info back to your mentor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khru

As for your overseas teaching experience getting you extra points on the pay scale.... don't count on it. It is often a major barrier to getting a job, especially if you're male.

Really? I must say I didn't find that, speaking personally as a male who'd previously taught only in Thailand.

Jon · 12th December 2007, 00:17

Yeah, speak for yourself mate. Maybe the person you're referring to came across as a 'particular undesirable sort', rightly or wrongly, maybe their fault, maybe the interviewer's fault. I got a PGCE place with UEA knowing I was about to go to Thailand for a few months and they thought that was great. When I was enjoying it in Thailand and delayed my place for a year, no probs, I was doing a good thing, and they kept the place open for me. When it came to completing my PGCE we talked about my TEFL experience, which of course also went into working and living with other cultures and broadening my horizons. Just up my street as a potential geography teacher. I got the job and mainly because of my 18 months Thailand experience (the only other teaching I'd done was 2 summer's of UK TEFLing) they gave me 2 years seniority up the pay scales, which in those days was around £2,000.
So yes, your Thailand teaching experience can put you in good stead. But if you don't come across well as a person no amount of experience is going to help you, and if you come across badly this may lead to questions being raised about you and what you've been up to in the past.
Of course, you might also be unlucky enough to be interviewed by a small minded bigot who ought to know better.
-----
And going back to finances, don't forget that there are all sorts of govt assisted schemes for key workers to help them buy property, with first time buyer initiatives, key worker housing projects, part ownership, etc. I have friends in these schemes and I see ads for them in my profession's media all the time. There are heavy subsidies for a long list of key workers throughout the UK. So it aint all bad by any stretch.

khru · 12th December 2007, 00:48

"But if you don't come across well as a person no amount of experience is going to help you, and if you come across badly this may lead to questions being raised about you and what you've been up to in the past.
Of course, you might also be unlucky enough to be interviewed by a small minded bigot who ought to know better."

It sounds like you've been around well travelled HTs. Whilst I didn't have a problem getting work (as a female chemistry teacher) I've heard loads of sniping and bad-mouthing about more mature male teachers who've spent time overseas. Obviously overseas experience would be helpful for geography, MFL and RE but it isn't always so well regarded for other subjects. Hopefully things are changing. I always try to challenge the misconceptions but teachers, in many areas of the UK, can be a conservative bunch.
-----
BTW Jon, where are you from in Suffolk?
(Did a placement at Sudbury Upper School & loved it. Didn't like any of the other Suffolk schools tho)

Jon · 12th December 2007, 00:58

Oh yes, they can be very conservative and small minded, with no 'world view' whatsoever. Staff rooms were pretty boring places, I remember, and very cliquey. I never could break into the lunchtime knitting circle

I was still in my 20s as well, with a wife and kid. It's true that some people do have a negative perception of Thailand, and I've come across it myself, and I can see how a single male in his 40s who's lived several years in Bangkok might be viewed by some people. People do judge. Thailand TEFL experience will do you no harm whatsoever, but other factors closely connected might not work so well for some, depending on the individual.

grasshopper · 14th December 2007, 23:41

defender · 15th December 2007, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by khru

As for your overseas teaching experience getting you extra points on the pay scale.... don't count on it. It is often a major barrier to getting a job, especially if you're male . A lot of HTs are very wary of people who have only taught overseas.

That is the opposite of my experience, I have met with around half a dozen HTs in the last month and all of them were overwhelmingly positive about my experience in Thailand. As well as that the contact I have at two different universities regarding GTP are also both very positive about the whole thing.

Jon · 15th December 2007, 21:41

I think we know what the real picture is - my anecdote from 1991, paully's from the recent past and yours from now - all male teachers who have done it, rather than a female who thinks she knows

and I was going to add that the fact that my subject was geography wasn't the main reason my overseas experience was viewed as positive and it was rather my having lived and worked overseas and experienced students of other cultures, etc.

Let's make it quite clear - TEFL experience, in Thailand or anywhere else, is viewed by educational employers in the West as a positive thing.

If your personality isn't deemed suitable it doesn't matter whether you've been living in Bangkok or Bournemouth.

defender · 16th December 2007, 00:10

I'd have to agree. I'd also add that most of my new co-workers who I've chatted with were female and nearly all said that they would really love to try working abroad themselves. I can't see the problem at all - Khru seems like the sort of person who likes to think she's top of the tree

zehner · 16th December 2007, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon

If your personality isn't deemed suitable it doesn't matter whether you've been living in Bangkok or Bournemouth.

yup. the main benefits to you in getting onto a pgce course are your attitude, personality and subject knowledge.

i came into my interview with 6 months experience in cambodia and a few months of substitute work in ireland....it wasn't a real issue in the interview. they got me to write an analysis of a poem which i was given 30 minutes previous to the interview. no problem for me as i love poetry.

then they asked me what i knew about the british system...ummmm not much i said in all honestly and then proceded to tell them about the irish system which i had used in my application form (to their confusion)

last part was about discipline matters. my tutor had brought in a head from one of their schools for this part and he thoroughly grilled me but i kept my cool.

my teaching experience was only a background to the real thrust of the interview in hindsight. they actually asked me to go to some secondary schools in ireland to observe classes to get real experience! i taught ESL in dublin for a few months after that and managed to get that accepted as my secondary experience requirement.

the course itself is tough and very demanding regarding paperwork and determination on your part to improve your teaching skills. it is definitely worth it though. only 9 long, hard, hassle-filled months of slog

james_baldrey · 14th June 2008, 16:10

i'm 2 weeks away from finishing my PGCE in Business studies in the UK. I have had 4.5 years teaching TESOL abroad and that experience definetly made doing the school teaching placements in UK so much easier. However, going back to the OP, I dont understand why people think that having PGCE and QTS makes you a 'real' teacher. i have experienced both sides and can honestly say that it's bol****s. The only benefit the PGCE gave me is experiencing real classroom behaviour problems with kids who disrespect you, square up to you face to face, and who are so terribly behaved. Apart from that, i dont think i have learned that much more on the PGCE than from my CELTA and years in the classroom or observing other good teachers. Does the PGCE make me a 'real' teacher? Does it bol****s! ...i dont need QTS to tell me i am 'qualified' .... us TEFLers should stop looking at the PGCE/QTS as being the holy grail! We do a great job! Keep up the good work!

naboo · 14th June 2008, 17:14

Experience is what is needed to make you a 'real' teacher. After my PGCE, I was still an appalling teacher. Now, with 3 years (including the PGCE) teaching under my belt, I'm starting to get there. I've still got a lot to learn, but I feel myself improving dramatically. Give me two more years, and I'll consider myself to be a 'good' teacher. This is reflected in the pay, which in the UK starts at £20k and moves up to £35k ish once you go through threshold.

I have no doubt there are TEFLers in Thailand with no formal training who are better teachers than I ever will be. Self evaluation, the ability to respond to criticism constructively and the right personality are what you need.

Still, qualified teacher status through a PGCE and induction makes you a serious candidate for jobs across the world.

GeeCee · 14th June 2008, 17:28

here in West Aus, the dept of Ed is looking at a new course to fill gaping holes in the teaching fraternity.
If you have a degree in 'something', you can do a 3 month university diploma and be able to teach. This diploma is presently 12 months.

We will be 2000 teachers short in 5 to 10 years time...under paid..blah blah blah...but that's another story.