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Thread: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    I was and am talking about the worth of such a course for becoming legally licensed in Thailand as a teacher. There is none that I can find given the fact that tefl courses are not even mentioned in the recent list of requirements for obtaining an MoE teaching license.
    I thought that a TEFL is required for a WP. The TL is another animal that comes later but, afaik, without a foreign teaching qualification or a TEFL it's difficult to get the initial WP, right?
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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    I don't see where taking a TEFL course helps you get legal here in view of the fact that such courses aren't part of the new requirements. It may make help you get a job in some instances, but chances are it won't be a legal job unless you qualify otherwise by having the basic requirement of a degree.
    soi 7 corner girl in Pattaya, this is no longer the basic requirement. From your lofty previous posts I presume you have a PGCE so only need to worry about the cultural course.

    However, if you don't have a PGCE you are now swimming in the shit with the degreeless scum you like to lambast so often The only difference is the like of you will need to shell out money for the Thai course or a PGCE by distance learning, while the degreeless scum (with families and lives here) are thinking of going or doing degrees via distance.
    I hope you didn't hurt yourself falling off your perch and do have a PGCE.
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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    You have me confused with another Soi 7 corner girl, apparently, as I am not in Pattaya.

    Didn't you make this mistake before?

    Actually, I don't have to worry about any of this stuff. I teach in a uni and this is all a spectator sport for me.

    No doubt, this will make you even more unhappy.

    Are you saying a degree is not necessary?
    What's a PGCE?
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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson
    The TEFL providers are going to have to step back and re-evaluate their positions, certainly with respect to accepting students who may be doshing out the money and finding themselves pretty well in the same position as before they "did the course', so to speak..
    Russell, I'll preface my comments by saying I'm only making points of inquiry and not trying to be an ass.

    To what position are you referring? Based upon an on-line application, how is a provider to know which applicants will be capable of passing the course? Is that even their job? Yes, one could establish minimum requirements but then what? If someone wants to take the course, it's up to them to pass. If they can't meet the minimum--and I stress minimum--standards, they don't pass. I've not seen anyone who didn't improve whist taking the course walk away with a certificate. Why should a provider deny someone the opportunity to come and attempt the course?

    Four weeks is not enough to train a teacher. However, it provides them a base on which to work. Without even this minimum standard, how is the teacher supposed to build good teaching practice? Besides, if there's a demand for people with these minimum qualifications, who are we to say we won't supply the need?

    The ESL industry needs better teachers. However, there aren't enough to go around--nor are int'l wages enough to support many qualified teachers. Why not provide those in need with teachers who have at least some modicum of training?

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C
    I thought that a TEFL is required for a WP. The TL is another animal that comes later but, afaik, without a foreign teaching qualification or a TEFL it's difficult to get the initial WP, right?
    AFAIK, at the present time, the tefl certificate is not a factor in terms of what the MoE is requiring for issuance of a TL. If you find something to the contrary that comes from a credible government source, please let us know.

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    Exactly.

    I wonder what percentage of the present (or prospective) tefl students in Thailand have even started waking up to the fact that their certificates will count for naught when it comes to qualifying for an MoE license?

    I also agree that most schools do not "require" a tefl. That is only the well-worn mantra of the tefl course industry.
    The mistake you are making is the majority of schools in Thailand are Government, the "most schools" you are referring to are the minority.
    The majority pay 35 to 45 max for the native speaking teachers.
    the majority do not need native speaking teachers with BEds, PGCE's or credits to become legal teachers and most in BKK do not like to employ directly, especially now because of all the yearly paper work they need to do and the high staff turnover.
    So they go to agencies for their teachers.
    A lot of agencies run TEFL CELTA courses, so they can give the customers the guarantee that "not only has out candidate got a Bachelors Degree in Media Studies, but they've also received some teacher training."
    The School likes this because they don't have to worry about TL,WP, BEds etc etc.

    If you're asking is it a con, then i think in some respects it is, in other words "come do our TEFL with any old degree and we'll give you a job. However Crew made a very good point earlier with regards to how doing such courses is beneficial to the prospective teacher.

    Having a TEFL cert will not help you get a job in a private school or an international, where IMHO all teachers should have Degrees in specific fields and PGCE's or the credits from a thai run course, if not take a step down the ladder to a Government school where you belong and allow a fully qualified teacher do their job properly in the right environment, and get paid the money they deserve for doing it!

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eric C
    I thought that a TEFL is required for a WP. The TL is another animal that comes later but, afaik, without a foreign teaching qualification or a TEFL it's difficult to get the initial WP, right?

    AFAIK, at the present time, the tefl certificate is not a factor in terms of what the MoE is requiring for issuance of a TL. If you find something to the contrary that comes from a credible government source, please let us know.
    I was speaking to the need for a WP before the TL process begins. A WP is the first step to being legal, the TL comes later. Isn't it pretty difficult to get a WP without a TEFL? (I say difficult because I know it can be done.)

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    You have me confused with another Soi 7 corner girl, apparently, as I am not in Pattaya.
    Didn't you make this mistake before?
    No, your nick is reference to a mentally disturbed aids suffering prostitue who stands on the corner of soi 7 in pattaya. (if the poor woman is stil alive), must we go through all this again?

    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    Actually, I don't have to worry about any of this stuff. I teach in a uni and this is all a spectator sport for me.
    yet, Universities have their own ministry and i would bet if the bar is raised for school teachers it will get raised even higher for teachers in universities. Especially if they are following other countries mentioned. BEds, Masters, Specific fields. Evne PHD's in some Uk Universities, somehow I don't think you'd measure up.
    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    No doubt, this will make you even more unhappy.
    a little bit presumptuous of you.
    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    Are you saying a degree is not necessary?
    no, I'm saying what the TC and MOE are saying, a degree in any old field does not a international school teacher make.
    A degree in any field with a TEFL cert and you'll get a job in a Government School.
    Quite right as well I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by soijetcornergirl
    What's a PGCE?
    PGCE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia














    -----
    I'd also like to add "it's all a spectator sport for me!" kind of sums up ( and i hate to use the word) your trollishness. You are a negative bore who takes pleasure in seeing people with families in trouble, nice.
    Last edited by Classic-Chassis; 19th February 2008 at 15:59. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C
    I was speaking to the need for a WP before the TL process begins. A WP is the first step to being legal, the TL comes later. Isn't it pretty difficult to get a WP without a TEFL? (I say difficult because I know it can be done.)
    I have had a WP for more than six years without a TEFL. A number of the other teachers do not have a TEFL. It has never been a problem in getting a WP. A TEFL, contrary to what some report, is not and has never been a requirement, at least a requirement that was enforced consistently. Here, you get more money (a little) with a TEFL, but you do need a degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Classic-Chassis
    no, I'm saying what the TC and MOE are saying, a degree in any old field does not a international school teacher make. A degree in any field with a TEFL cert and you'll get a job in a Government School. Quite right as well I think.
    That doesn't sound right to me. I have no problem with the part about an international school, but a true international school would rarely even considerer someone without a professional educational background. However, I have a hard time believing that you could not get a job in a government school with a BA/BS if you didn't have a TEFL. I know of at least a few government schools who, in the past, have not listed a TEFL as a requirement, but have required a BA/BS.

    Further, it is my understanding that these changes, assuming that they actually happen, will affect all schools, including government schools. In that case, teachers will need not only a BA/BS, but also the Thai culture course and, somehow, meet the educational requirements (PGCE, B.Ed., test, other).

    The point trying to be made is, I think, that a TEFL is not required to be hired as a teacher, even under the new rules. If there is such a requirement, a link would be appreciated.

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Classic-Chassis
    No, your nick is reference to a mentally disturbed aids suffering prostitue who stands on the corner of soi 7 in pattaya. (if the poor woman is stil alive), must we go through all this again?

    yet, Universities have their own ministry and i would bet if the bar is raised for school teachers it will get raised even higher for teachers in universities. Especially if they are following other countries mentioned. BEds, Masters, Specific fields. Evne PHD's in some Uk Universities, somehow I don't think you'd measure up.
    a little bit presumptuous of you.
    no, I'm saying what the TC and MOE are saying, a degree in any old field does not a international school teacher make.
    A degree in any field with a TEFL cert and you'll get a job in a Government School.
    Quite right as well I think.
    PGCE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
















    -----
    I'd also like to add "it's all a spectator sport for me!" kind of sums up ( and i hate to use the word) your trollishness. You are a negative bore who takes pleasure in seeing people with families in trouble, nice.
    See. I was right. It did make you more unhappy.

    You're telling me what my nick has reference to?

    I made the name up all my own and without any reference to Pattaya or anyone in Pattaya.

    It is just one of several errors in what you wrote above.

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    To what position are you referring? Based upon an on-line application, how is a provider to know which applicants will be capable of passing the course? Is that even their job? Yes, one could establish minimum requirements but then what? If someone wants to take the course, it's up to them to pass. If they can't meet the minimum--and I stress minimum--standards, they don't pass. I've not seen anyone who didn't improve whist taking the course walk away with a certificate. Why should a provider deny someone the opportunity to come and attempt the course?
    Sorry crew.

    Perhaps I worded it poorely.

    The point I was trying to make is that (depending of course on who you're listening to), a degree of some sort will be required in order to even qualify for the course. So if somebody's mtaking a course and doesn't have a degree prerequisite then it could be problematic.

    I don't think the Providers should be saying, hey, take the certificate and you are guaranteed a job. I hope they are making prospective students aware of the generally shifting requirements.

    Of course, at the end of the day, it's always caveat emptor, eh

    And of course, everyone has to make a living.

    Just hope the providers are being forthcoming with their students.

    Didn't intend to open a can of worms here. This is one topic I generally stay well clear of.

    And of course your probably right in saying that there will always be some jobs available to people with a simple TEFL.

    I will say though that the TEFL folks don't seem to mind promulgating the myth that a TEFL is in any sense a prerequisite for teaching here. That's just irresponsible. And I'll stand by that and let it go.
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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson
    I will say though that the TEFL folks don't seem to mind promulgating the myth that a TEFL is in any sense a prerequisite for teaching here. That's just irresponsible.
    Agree.

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajarn farang
    but i've heard that the thai culture course is a joke.
    well, I couldn't think of a more fitting course on Thai culture/ethics
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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    so, from what i can gather, we are now saying that a tefl certificate is no longer valid within the los.

    if that is the case, why are we still seeing all the pop up ads on this, amongst other sites, stating what they state!

    no wonder 'bangkok phil' is keeping quiet!!

    having lived in manchester for 'x' amount of years, and having seen how 'they' exploit their own, i think us, as ferrangs have no chance!!

    i wouldn't want to work in a thai school again, after spending 9 years of my life doing so, instead i would rather choose a language centre, or a university, part-time preferably!

    but then, money is not the be all and end all for me.

    looking forward to respones!

    rgds

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    Re: degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

    Quote Originally Posted by luckydog
    so, from what i can gather, we are now saying that a tefl certificate is no longer valid within the los.

    if that is the case, why are we still seeing all the pop up ads on this, amongst other sites, stating what they state!

    no wonder 'bangkok phil' is keeping quiet!!

    having lived in manchester for 'x' amount of years, and having seen how 'they' exploit their own, i think us, as ferrangs have no chance!!

    i wouldn't want to work in a thai school again, after spending 9 years of my life doing so, instead i would rather choose a language centre, or a university, part-time preferably!

    but then, money is not the be all and end all for me.

    looking forward to respones!

    rgds
    Smeg?
    -----
    I did my TEFL to gain some insight into what to do in the classroom. It gave me a lot of confidence, it also gave me a 1-year non-imm B visa and introduced me to my first employer. I believe schools that are looking for subject teachers want a degree in a related field and any type of experience/training is a bonus. But good schools looking for TEFL teachers want to see TEFL training, not surprisingly.

    I was never told I needed the TEFL to be legal, I always knew a degree is needed. Can you point to the TEFL provider(s) that say a TEFL is a requirement for a TL? I know guys working for TEFL trainers and they provide what they advertise - TEFL training. Choose wisely and you'll also get the non-immB, teaching experience, confidence, job support, connections, buddies and a great experience.

    The alternative is come here blind with no preparation, training, experience and step into a non aircon classroom with 50 kids speaking Thai. Good luck if that's what you want.

    However, after living here quite a few years I know that if you don't have a degree but are prepared to work for a government school in a provincial city, they'll be able to make you legal somehow. Most language schools only employ p-t and give diddly squat but I also know guys that have been pulling this gig for many years.

    There are mixed reports about whether the TL and the Teacher Proficiency thing is needed now. However, if it becomes a universal requirement how many of us will be left this time next year? School won't allow this to happen as they need 'bodies' in classrooms.
    Last edited by Loaded; 20th February 2008 at 08:14. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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