degree and tefl no longer sufficient lor?

**Classic-Chassis** · 20th February 2008 07:10

Originally Posted by latm

That doesn't sound right to me. I have no problem with the part about an international school, but a true international school would rarely even considerer someone without a professional educational background. However, I have a hard time believing that you could not get a job in a government school with a BA/BS if you didn't have a TEFL. I know of at least a few government schools who, in the past, have not listed a TEFL as a requirement, but have required a BA/BS.

Further, it is my understanding that these changes, assuming that they actually happen, will affect all schools, including government schools. In that case, teachers will need not only a BA/BS, but also the Thai culture course and, somehow, meet the educational requirements (PGCE, B.Ed., test, other).

The point trying to be made is, I think, that a TEFL is not required to be hired as a teacher, even under the new rules. If there is such a requirement, a link would be appreciated.

Lots of inter schools aren't "true" as you put it, but they'll still fall into the BEd, credits bracket, so do E.P's.
Yes, i think you could get a job in any government school based on only holding a Degree in any field. You don't even need a Degree, as i understand it government schools are exempt from the restrictions/rules and a few posters on here who don't hold Degrees work in government schools with TLs and WPs. They are all out side BKK though and are employed directly. Most Government schools in BKK don't like to employ direct because of all the problems and paper work they are forced to do that comes from the proper government offices where all the silly rules are made. So, as I said they go through agencies which run teacher training courses and will only consider placing you in one of their many government school contracts IF you do their course.
I must also agree with Crew, just landing and going straight into a class room will leave you ill prepared for teaching basic english to the average class of 60 nutters. TEFL courses prepare you for it.
Don't make the link of TEFL = Job in bi-lingual because you are perfectly right, it matters not a jot.
I'd aslo like to add, Degree in any old field+TEFL from agency = job teaching basic English conversation. Not specific subjects like maths, or even English grammar.

**Bangkok Phil** · 21st February 2008 16:40

Originally Posted by luckydog

so, from what i can gather, we are now saying that a tefl certificate is no longer valid within the los.
if that is the case, why are we still seeing all the pop up ads on this, amongst other sites, stating what they state!
no wonder 'bangkok phil' is keeping quiet!!

Keeping quiet about what? That the situation hasn't changed?

Let's say you go for a job interview, and the interviewer wants to see a TEFL certificate.
And you haven't got one.

Doesn't that mean you might not get the job? If so, then they might still be quite useful to some.

**Cyrille** · 21st February 2008 16:52

^ Another anti training vigilante bites the dust!

Also, where are the pop ups, phil?

I demand pop ups!

**latm** · 21st February 2008 17:02

Originally Posted by Bangkok Phil

Let's say you go for a job interview, and the interviewer wants to see a TEFL certificate. And you haven't got one. Doesn't that mean you might not get the job? If so, then they might still be quite useful to some.

I am sure that there some positions where the school requires a TEFL of some sort, but I don't think that there are that many, except of course for the TEFL school/placement agency where you get a job after completing that program's TEFL.

However, so long as "useful" and not "required" is used except for a limited number of cases I have no objection at all.

**luckydog** · 21st February 2008 19:12

Phil,

I do not have an agenda!

I was merely pointing out that you're site continues to advertise 'internationally recognised' tefl courses, and as we now know, in Thailand, there may be an issue with this 'recognition'.

I personally feel that a TEFL cert is important, (maybe even for those who have Bed's from native speaking countries!) and I AM NOT anti-TEFL providers.

With regards to you're keeping quiet, I was refering to your own words on ajarn homepage regarding the recent changes in TL requirements.

Phil, I have lived and worked in Thialand for 10 years and I am more than aware of the hurdles and contradictions that they continue to throw at us.

Surely, as 'the man' behind ajarn.com, you do have a certain amount of responsibility in providing your site users with as much true and upto date information as you can. Yes, I appreciate that this recent TL issue is a grey area at the moment, and only time will tell, however, you could do some of your own research into the matter, as i know you have done in the past regarding other similar issues that have sprung up. Maybe you are already doing this, if so, i apologise for my assumption.

Your homepage could mislead a newbie into thinking that if they did one of the TEFL courses, then they were able to work legally in Thailand. There is one ad that says 'Become a qualified English teacher....APPLY TODAY!', there is another that states' LIVE & WORK LEGALLY IN THAILAND, take a TEFL course in PATTAYA'.

This is my point.

rgds

**zehner** · 21st February 2008 19:20

^so Phil should take down all TEFL adverts and wait until such time as he receives clarification from the Thai MOE as to the new regs??

**luckydog** · 21st February 2008 19:38

thanks for that zehner...very constructive!!

typical response....no wonder you got all those green points!!

**Topper** · 21st February 2008 19:47

Originally Posted by luckydog

Phil, I have lived and worked in Thialand for 10 years

You'd think after 10 years you could spell the name of the country right...

**luckydog** · 21st February 2008 19:51

i left that mistake in there, because i just knew a regular user would pay more attention to such a trivial point, and meander far from the actual point. well done!! one step ahead mate!!

**Topper** · 21st February 2008 19:56

So luckydog, how would you suggest Phil handle things? So far, all I've heard is questions....give us the benefit of your years of experience and share what should be done.

**Bangkok Phil** · 21st February 2008 20:04

Originally Posted by luckydog

Surely, as 'the man' behind ajarn.com, you do have a certain amount of responsibility in providing your site users with as much true and upto date information as you can. Yes, I appreciate that this recent TL issue is a grey area at the moment, and only time will tell, however, you could do some of your own research into the matter, as i know you have done in the past regarding other similar issues that have sprung up. Maybe you are already doing this, if so, i apologise for my assumption.

Perhaps I do have a responsibility, and perhaps I don't, - but one thing I don't do is chase lost causes.

To get some kind of realistic picture of the this TL issue (instead of the 50 different opinions floating about on this forum), you need to make an appointment with one of the top boys at the Ministry of Education. You need to tell him who you are and why you're coming for a chat. Then he needs to spare you an hour and actually turn up for the appointment. Oh and he needs to speak a decent level of English.

How many hurdles is that? Six?

Trust me. I've tried to go down this route before with other issues. The MOE don't want to know. They may not be familiar with ajarn.com but when you explain who and what you are, they're even less interested.

**luckydog** · 21st February 2008 20:10

Topper, is it confusing you, the fact that I have been in Thaialnd for so long, but I am a New Member? If you actually bother to read my above post, rather than scim-reading and picking up on a spelling mistake, my suggestion as to what Phil should do, will become apparent.
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As i have said before, I'm not sure what's worse....a Thai loosing face, or an ajarn.com regular user/senior member loosing face.

**Topper** · 21st February 2008 20:27

Lucky,

Nope, don't see it...but then I'm not as experienced as you.

But I will have to admit I've heard this kind of talk before from another person in the past...complaints of misleading advertising and asking for Phil to take responsiblity for the adverts on his site. Seems vaguely familiar....just can't quite place the nick, but it reminds me of a color....

**Bangkok Phil** · 21st February 2008 20:28

Originally Posted by latm

I am sure that there some positions where the school requires a TEFL of some sort, but I don't think that there are that many

Well.......let's put it to the test.

I've just gone through the last 40 'proper' teaching jobs posted on ajarn.com. By 'proper' teaching job, I'm talking about a one-year contract and a salary of 35,000 baht a month or above. I'm not counting the three-day summer camps, the Indian woman who's looking for someone to teach her kids for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning, or animation companies looking for someone to do voice-overs. For those jobs, all you'll need is a pulse....and we all know that.

So out of the last 40 'proper' teaching jobs posted - 18 are asking for a TEFL certificate and one ad says that a TEFL would be prefered but not necessary. So almost half.
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It's also important to remember that there are two types of job post - the ones posted by foreigners (which I assume leads to an interview with a foreigner)
I would say that 80% of those ads ask for a TEFL certificate.

And then the job ads posted by Thais. Often (but not always) delightfully clueless.
"teacher must not be smoking"
"teacher should be familiar with Thai culture"
"teacher should have a teaching licence and a non-immigrant B visa"
"teacher must have IELTS score or TOEIC" (or any other acronym they've ignorantly plucked out of thin air)

I would say 20-30% of these ads request a TEFL certificate.

**latm** · 21st February 2008 21:17

Originally Posted by Bangkok Phil

So out of the last 40 'proper' teaching jobs posted - 18 are asking for a TEFL certificate and one ad says that a TEFL would be prefered but not necessary. So almost half.

Phil, I don't doubt that your report of your review is accurate. I would suggest, however, that it is not really a definitive test. If one wanted to put to the test whether a TEFL is required, a much more reliable way would be to check with those schools who list the TEFL to see who the called in for an interview. I say "called in for an interview" because I presume that they would not waste their time on an applicant they know they would not hire.

I strongly suspect that a school who posts a TEFL as a requirement wouldn't hesitate to call in an applicant with a BA and, say, five or six years experience teaching in Thailand the type of students the school is advertising for.

I am absolutely certain that I wouldn't want to teach at a school which would refuse to consider an applicant with a B.Ed/PGCE/equivalent with several years teaching experience in Thailand simply because they do not have a TEFL.

So Phil, if you want to put it to a real test, I propose the following. Contact those 18 schools in a couple of months and see if they interviewed an applicant without a TEFL. I feel so strongly that that is unlikely that, if there aren't any I will be happy to buy you and your wife dinner at the Londoner or similar priced establishment. Let me know if you can be bothered to do the considerable work that would be entailed.