Farang EFL teachers' salaries totally unrelated to Thais - Page 2 - Ajarn Forum

GreatSage · 3rd February 2005, 06:40

PB, I mentioned age as I thought your concerns about disparity stemmed from that. Sorry. Given that you have a lot of savings and a pension, most of the concerns you have won’t apply anyway? Ie, your pension from the US would be significantly higher than most Thai pensions.

I can understand the WP problem in the provinces.

Re inheritances, I’ll be very happy if my folks live until they are 90. I was just suggesting that a lot of farangs in Thailand will get ‘something’. Even a minor thing in the west, in Thai money, tends to be significant. I know a lot of farangs who have opened businesses etc based on things like this. Again, not a pension…but something.

Yes, young people tend not to save. However, that’s up to the individual. Surely anyone ‘youngish’, who is planning on settling in a country where they will have no social security benefits, will plan for the future? If not, they can always go home and get something in their ‘own’ country in many cases. I don’t know how the USA system is under Bush though. Thankfully, I’m not American

I disagree totally that other wages are not relevant. Other wages set the “context” for costs and so forth within a society. If a Thai Pharmacist and Doctor can ‘survive’ on 20K /40K, then I’d argue strongly that a farang ajarn should be able to cope. I can assure you that, in most western countries, Pharmacists and Doctors are paid much more than teachers and lead infinitely better lifestyles!

Again, much of this comes down to what people want out of Thailand. The guy who wants 2 years of fun and then plans to return home can do that easily on an ajarns salary. The guy who wants to stay in Thailand a long time obviously needs to plan a bit more for the long term. Like anywhere, the purchase of property will be one’s main expense. As I said before, I’d not like to pay off a Thai mortgage on an ajarns salary. Most Thai’s don’t pay off mortgages in the western way, ie a young couple take a huge loan. Thai family’s tend to live together and thus the land is paid off often by the previous generation and left to the kids, who then build on it etc. If one can ‘avoid’ that expense, then a farang should be able to live a decent lifestyle in Thailand. Certainly better than a teacher in the west ‘trapped’ in a 30 year mortgage

I agree with your overall sentiment that farangs have little rights though. It’s disgraceful that legitimately married guys with kids, who have lived in the country for years…have basically no rights. Contrast that with Thai spouses abroad who get full legal rights in most places (and so they should).
:chug:

Loner · 3rd February 2005, 08:25

Its true most doctors could survive on 20-40K here, but its likely that most would not want to! Doctors in Govt hospitals get the regular govt salary, but they have nice houses and cars. They make their real money in the evenings with their private practices (such as a plastic surgeon friend of mine). Many can make several hundred thousand baht a month depending on how much work they get and the type of work they do. Same applies to dentists. Their govt jobs will just provide a bit of a pension when they retire.

GreatSage · 3rd February 2005, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loner

Its true most doctors could survive on 20-40K here, but its likely that most would not want to! Doctors in Govt hospitals get the regular govt salary, but they have nice houses and cars. They make their real money in the evenings with their private practices (such as a plastic surgeon friend of mine). Many can make several hundred thousand baht a month depending on how much work they get and the type of work they do. Same applies to dentists. Their govt jobs will just provide a bit of a pension when they retire.

True in some cases, certainly not all. Regardless, the 40K ajarn still gets double a Pharmacist, three times what some nurses gets, four times mot receptionists. Does the teacher back home get double a pharmacists wage? I don't think so.

Again, so long as you don't have the burden of property...as most Thai's don't due to the family structure...an ajarns salary is quite a decent amount contextually.

PeaceBlondie · 3rd February 2005, 11:20

I'll grant you that in an indirect way, general wage levels in a national economy affect the wage levels of foreigners' jobs that are otherwise totally unrelated. The cost of living in a country usually forces wage levels above subsistence level for any skilled labor. Or to put it another way, the Supply of foreign workers depends on their own needs. If those two science teacher's candidates for Udon Suckathai are willing to accept 45K instead of 95K, then that's the prevailing supply of the laborers. They won't insist on 95K of course, but if they're wise, well qualified and in the career for many years, they'll want at least 50K.

hiso · 3rd February 2005, 13:21

Don't want to get onto a cost of living debate but... When i first came to Thailand i started teaching in Rachaburi,.I had a spacious, detached three bedroom house.I have never met a teacher in England with that kind of house, and I had it when I was 22!

sigmoid · 3rd February 2005, 13:49

Yes, but you were renting not owning, right?

But of course I guess it would be prohibitely expensive to rent a house like that in England.

Snaff · 3rd February 2005, 14:02

Good point.

Rent is rent.

I personally don't care if it is a box or a palace. One is nicer than the other, of course.

In the end, rent is rent. No appreciation, no equity, no chance for positive cash flow.

PeaceBlondie · 3rd February 2005, 14:11

Then again, we needn't compare farang EFL wages in Thailand to wages in the UK or the USA. I've conceded that farang aren't going to be demanding 95K since that's excessive, considering the cost of living. But in those endless debates, we've agreed that in the long term it's very difficult to subsist on 25K or even 35K.

Okay then, what are the proper criteria to determine farang EFL teachers' wages, if not their supply and demand locally??

PeaceBlondie · 3rd February 2005, 18:08

Me, too!

hiso · 3rd February 2005, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

Then again, we needn't compare farang EFL wages in Thailand to wages in the UK or the USA. I've conceded that farang aren't going to be demanding 95K since that's excessive, considering the cost of living. But in those endless debates, we've agreed that in the long term it's very difficult to subsist on 25K or even 35K.

Okay then, what are the proper criteria to determine farang EFL teachers' wages, if not their supply and demand locally??

You have made some good points PB. As you have probably guessed I am a bit of youngster, but the lack of long term stability in employment and whether they wont just get fed up with all us long term stay farangs and herd us onto cattle trucks, concerns even me.

PeaceBlondie · 3rd February 2005, 19:13

Will they just kick us out en masse in some kind of xenophobic frenzy, or just starve out the 'serious' teachers and be happy with the unqualified who barely mumble the native tongue and will work in Utter Bumfukathai for 20,000 baht ten months per year?

hiso · 3rd February 2005, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

Will they just kick us out en masse in some kind of xenophobic frenzy, or just starve out the 'serious' teachers and be happy with the unqualified who barely mumble the native tongue and will work in Utter Bumfukathai for 20,000 baht ten months per year?

I think it's back packers who are to blame... their year spent exploring themselves ( and Asia) completely fecks up the jobs market, them and the alcoholic ex-coal miners from Sconthorpe who knocked up 17 year old yaba whore and have no real options

PeaceBlondie · 3rd February 2005, 20:35

c'mon now, ain't that just like hi society to blame it all on those Sconthrope coal diggers......makes West Texas trailer trash sound downright respectable.

samsara · 4th February 2005, 06:27

This is gonna be generalized.

Thais dont see farangs, especially those that teach, as being part of society. Holds true from the secretary who does all the copies at school, all the way up to bigwigs. Therefore, to compare "what TEFLers are worth" here with any other country, even other Asian ones carries no relevance oncesoever to whether salaries are fair or comparable between Thais and farangs. Thais are part of the system, farangs are not. Simple as that.

Look at it another way. Thailand is by no means a meritocracy. In fact, one could argue its the complete opposite of one. Skills very rarely dictate wages. Such is certainly the case when it comes to the world of education. It doesn't matter what your grades were, or how well you did on this or that exam, all starting salaries are the same. Everyone climbs the ladder -- a ladder with rungs bearing numerals indicating age not skill. This is how it is. Therefore, its a waste of time and effort to worry about salaries and benefits. Your answer to whether teaching in Thailand is worth it should be answered when you wake up early to teach a class you dont really want to, or when you change someone's life because you bring something new to the table, being different in many ways than Thais. This should guide you, not money or security. Face it, no farang is truly secure in Thailand because of the above. Cant own land, cant buy stuff, the list goes on and on. If its security you want, head back to your mother.

kingwilly · 4th February 2005, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

A. The farang is not Thai, not a govt. officer, not a native speaker of Thai language.
B. The farang is not a Thai citizen, and total annual expenses for visas may easily run 84,000 per year (averaging 7,000 baht per month).

partially incorrect - farangs born here about 30 years ago DO have thai residency voting rights etc. I wished I average 7K a month - I spend maybe 35K /month on flights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

D. Most farang are illegal workers, like Burmese street cleaners. Even with proper degree, they probably don't have work permit, proper visa, no permanent residency, etc.)

sorry I disagree here - mayb most farang YOU know are illegal workers - most the ppl I know are not english teachers and have decent jobs visas et al.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

E. They have a skill that 99% of the Thai EFL teachers will never have: native fluency in English.

while i agree that many thai's can never have a good level of english - it is a fairly well proven point that just because you were born into an english speaking envirionment does not mean that you are fluent by any stretch of the imagination - in fact in my school the worst performing students are always English, Australian and American - by a very long way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

F. The farang get no pension, limited health insurance, no line of credit, no ability to own land or house in their own name, etc.

again same comment as point D. we all got decent pension funds, line of credit but ok land is a different issue - but that may be changing soon under the FTA that Thailand has signed with Aus and soon USA etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

The salary of a Thai ajarn, school director, or prime minister have nothing at all to do with the day wages of a street sweeper, or a farang who teaches in native English. If the only two qualified farang who are willing to teach math or science in Udon Suckathai both want 85,000 baht per month, that is the prevailing wage, and the only supply.

yep - true