Aaron70

Well said! As in anywhere. The longer you work and the more qualification you get the more you get paid. Over a 6 year period my salary has tripled. I went and got a BA, Dip ED, and working on a MEd so i could have a good career. Just a matter of doing the hard yards and then the rewards come. Get a bit tired of people complaining about making 25,000 a month when they have no qualifications. If you want to be a teacher, really want to, take the steps to achieve your goal and you will enjoy yourself and make a good living Was that preaching??

Cyrille

^ No, you're basically right. You do sound a bit up yerself, tho.

ajarn farang

no actually lads ive been here two years and in at that time ive worked for the top girls high school, aua, two of the top three universities as well as teaching at a rather poor high school in the sticks - which was probably the best experience of all (not to mention all the part-time gigs). i think i have acquired a good range of experience here. i was a teacher before i came here and i started on 26,000 b.

funnily enough it sounds like you've got the chip on your shoulder since i was referring to my mates at work but you seem to think it was pertaining to you because you are old.

why does one need a grad dip ed to teach tefl? i'm all for professional development and you seem to be confusing me with someone who is concerned about his future. i agree that you have to work towards things; life doesn't owe us anything. however, if a teacher with a BA has been teaching in LoS for 15 years, i say he deserves 50K baht. the thais seem to disagree with me. and you do too because you are shit-houses.

i'm not talking about the provinces because i have never lived all that far from bkk so i dont know. but GENERALLY speaking i think we deserve more.
-----
and it's not just salaries, we deserve more respect in general. the two things are related.
-----
cyrille wrote:

"You also said on another thread that 'I was sacked/resigned', Ajarn Forum. Seemed a bit odd - did the letters cross in the post or something?"

well i had already drafted my resignation letter (not the first person to do so either). i was offered another job in a different faculty but it transpired that they do not offer a contract to farang in the first year. i explained to them that this was totally unnacceptable. so i decided then to stay and soldier on (it usually better to at least try and finish what you've started). but then i was sacked.

"Your comments surprise me, as I'd heard Mahidol was a pretty good gig."

depends on the faculty doesn't chief. unless of course you are suggesting that they are all identical.

"Sorry you didn't get enough praise."

not only me mate, none of us. thank you is not a dirty word.
-----
now to kidneybeans:

"To be fair this complaint is quite false as you had been living next to the campus before you took the job!"

yeah, that's true enough. because i worked nearby at the government school. however, i think it is fair to say that we worked in an oppressive atmosphere. and no books - who ever heard of a university department without books!! most would agree that the campus "town" is a rather boring place. not that all this is really relevant to the central argument.

"As I recall you were one of two interviewed for the position you took!"

well you recall something i don't then as i wasn't party to such information. however, i was shown the stack of cvs at the interview and told that i couldn't possibly have 50k b. i don't really want to get into this shit on here kidneybeans. let's save it for teflwatch where it belongs. it seems that it is good think that i got them to tighten up selection procedures (again, the teaching demonstration innovation came from me - i was agog at how easy it was to get hired there and how mickey mouse the courses were).

"Interesting take on things here, most of those older downtrodden chapies are either studying for or have completed their masters! Whilst you only talked about doing one."

i think you are missing the point. i never said that anything about quals in conjunction with old people. however, you will admit you are downtrodden. fearing for your job everyday as you did and desperately trying to engratiate yourself with the powers that be.

but yes you are right. i have had been accepted for postgraduate study at a very good school to start next year so they actually saved me wasting another 6 months by sacking me. i can now go to japan and prepare properly.

lads, i think we are getting away from the main argument here. let's stick to the topic. i don't want to talk about me/ my last job. i just gave a few examples from my own context. perhaps you can offer some from your own.
-----
But Alright - If The General Consenus Of Opinion Is That We Are Treated Fairly And Remunerated Fairly Then I Will Shut Up And Tend To Other Matters.

kidneystone

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajarn farang no actually lads ive been here two years and in at that time ive worked for the top girls high school, aua, two of the top three universities as well as teaching at a rather poor high school in the sticks

Top girls school, two universities, a matayom gig and AUA all 1 year contracts and all in 2 years! My, my you have been busy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajarn farang funnily enough it sounds like you've got the chip on your shoulder since i was referring to my mates at work but you seem to think it was pertaining to you because you are old.

Chip no, job? yes! Old? yes, pension that is worth more than my wage? Yes, pertaining to me? No! hence my reply was regarding all the others who are trying to better themselves or have done so already! Your chips however do seem to be evenly balanced across the rather large yoke you have slung across your shoulders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajarn farang why does one need a grad dip ed to teach tefl?

Duh, to get those 50k jobs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajarn farang i'm all for professional development and you seem to be confusing me with someone who is concerned about his future. i agree that you have to work towards things; life doesn't owe us anything.

So why do you insist that life in Thailand OWES you 50k a month? That’s approximately 50% of what a NQT would get in the UK and that’s after a 1 year PGCE and the a years placement for evaluation, oh yes and they would be subject specific teachers, a BA TEFLer in London would be earning around 80kB month doing 20+ hours a week and living in a shoebox. As you keep saying life owes you nothing, you have to carve out your niche and that needs a sharp machete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajarn farang "Your comments surprise me, as I'd heard Mahidol was a pretty good gig."

Balderdash!

Have fun in Japan, I will keep an eye out for you complaining threads either here or on the Japanese teachers forum!

cocosan

You have been a busy boy.
Two years on and, yes it is a good 'range' of experience yet not really paying your dues. I'm a little surprised you haven't found how to work within the system.
You say Ajarn Forum you 'deserve' 50k, please pray tell why?
You get no respect. You get no thank yous. You are doing a job my friend. I trust you are doing or trying to do a good job. To me that is reward in itself. I know that sounds high and mighty but hell if I waited for the thank yous, i would still be waiting (possibly on tables back home.)
Mahidol IS a good uni. However all facultys have different personell and different ways of working. The uni is good, the personell is a crapshoot.
As to your assumption that we who have jobs and are happy, are old, fearful of our jobs, and desperately trying to engratiate ourselves to the powers to be, way off pal.
I have worked at 5 or 6 of the top unis in this country, a matayom gig, and too many private gigs to mention and whileI have had my moments, I dont go to a job expecting them to fete me and roll out the red carpet. I try to do my job, get on with it and learn from the experience. I don't ask for respect, I earn my respect by having a healthy attitude to why I am here and to my students.
Calling people 'shithouses' because they disagree with you will not get you much, no any respect from me personally and from I feel most people.
Remember you are in a region with 1000's of years history and culture, learn from it. If you want respect, earn it. If you want your high paying jobs, pay your dues.

MikeS

Can't comment on most of this, but I don't think you can necessarily judge the quality of a workplace by the amount of words written in the contract. I have seen contracts which said almost nothing, yet the bosses looked after the employees and they were very happy. I've also seen highly detailed contracts and yet everyone was whingeing and bitching about alleged failures to honor the contracts. So I think its more about attitude than anything else.
If an employee gives more than the basics, and the boss responds accordingly, then that fosters a good atmosphere. If an amployee spends heaps of time assuming the boss is trying to shaft him/her and examining the fineprint for alleged wrongs, then the atmosphere is poisoned and its all downhill to a messy end.
I find if you show respect and commitment and assume people will reciprocate, then they usually (not always) do. If they don't, well, at least your nose is clean and you can look yourself in the mirror and be satisfied you're a decent person, whichn is what really counts in the long run.

__________________

ajarn farang

i feel very strongly indeed about this subject as I guess several others do. I find it difficult to talk about in a dispassionate manner. i will engage in the debate when i have calmed down.

however, i think there is some truth in what kidneybeans says but i don't tend to agree with the idea that we should have to lick our bosses' arses to stay in a job and i don't think that necessarily improves matters. i would rather be out of a job. i am not thai and i do not believe in krengjai, though i will alter my behaviour accordingly sometimes. adapt? yes. collapse, cave in and subjugate oneself? i think this is counter-productive.

i requested something from my boss and i was told to put it in writing. before i entered her office, i gave her the most respectful wai i could muster. i had the written request in an envelope and neatly wrote her name on the front. we started talking and for no apparent reason she started shouting. just shouting not talking. then she threatened me with legal action for no apparent reason. my request was never granted even though i was told that if i put it in writing it would be taken care of.

cocosan, i think you are way wide of the mark and are misinterpreting me and i obviously need to explain myself better.

mike s, as usual, i agree with a lot that you have to say.

Dr dude

Aj

I am sure it has always been 'their' fault at each and every place you have worked in Thailand and your behavior had nothing to do with your problems.

I expect you will continue to find other people will be after you and will treat you like doo doo wherever you go.

Cheers

cocosan

It's a strange person that will start shouting and threaten legal action for no particular reason. In any culture.
What did you request?

Dr dude

I think it is safe to say we are getting only one side of the story and a very biased side at that

cocosan

Sounds to me.

Nemo.

Ok after some research I reckon comparing lifestyles of a "sexpat"....lets say rural Thailand v rural UK. Lets do some "bangnomics" I lived in Isaan for a while so know the local prices

Say bangs 15 hookers (overnight) a month and drinks 150 beers a month. Eats Thai food (mostly) and lives to a normal standard. Buys cheap fake t-shirts and has the fashion sense of a dead donkey (ie your normal sexpat dress sense)

15 hookers at 500 Baht longtime (a friend told me this price in Isaan). Thats 7,500 a month

150 Beers at average price 50 Baht (some home same out etc). 7,500 a month

Living costs inc rent 15,000 a month.

Thats a grand total of 30,000 Baht a month. In the sticks easy to get 30-32k a month if degree and/or TEFL (a cheap one ok). So can live with some possible savings if do extra private tuition. 40k is possible so 10k a month to pay for holidays / savings
__________________________________________________ ________________

UK: 15 hookers at 800 pounds a night = 12,000 pounds per month
150 beers at 2 pounds = 300 pounds a month
Living costs 1,200 per month

Thats a cost of 13,500 a month. That is 162,000 pounds a year or a gross salary of 272,000 pounds a year required!!!!!!!!!!!!! about 12 times the TEFL teaching salary.....


OK UK. Teacher (low experience/TEFL only) AFTER TAX would be lucky to pull in 1,200-1,500 pounds a month after tax.


Conclusion
Sexnomic theory shows Thailand rocks! by a factor of about 12 times the salary in "banging and beer" terms

__________________
There are two types of men in the world. Intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.

hentaigaijin

so. are we right in expecting standards in the workplace similar to those in our own countries. or because it is thailand should some of us accept intimidation, lies and subjugation? i personally am not willing to accept this. i know others who are extremely unhappy but believe they have no other choice.

so let's put aside my case for a moment. i contend that generally speaking there is room for improvement in terms of the treatment and respect level accorded to foreign teachers. I also contend that we are generally worth more than we are getting (NOT "ME", "WE"!!). i contend further that estimation of our worth cannot be linked to the salaries of thais necessarily.

BTW yes, mahidol is a good university and i was actually proud to work there. overall. but then that is all relative anyhow. what is a good university? harvard? i saw many things during my time there that made me realise just why it is ranked something like 951st best university in the world. quality and standards can vary from faculty to faculty.

Dr dude

AJ

"the thais will continue to perpetuate the myth that we are treated fairly"

"thai bosses are not charitable types and thais put themselves first always. the less they have to give us, the more for them - hence the lies."

"why don't you just get down on your knees and suck their cocks?"

"they = thai bosses in general (but particularly chinese-thai bosses)"

"it is the apologists and collaborators who ultimately encourage their nefarious activities."

You used plurals in all your rants and talked in general about how Thais are all bad, now you are saying it is just one case. Make up you mind, are all Thais bad like you first said or are Thais generally good except one boss you encountered. Maybe medicine is what you need, or at least consistency so we can have a clue about what you are
upset about.
-----
so. are we right in expecting standards in the workplace similar to those in our own countries. or because it is thailand should some of us accept intimidation, lies and subjugation?

Why do you think these are your only two options? I do not expect the same procedures in Thailand as in my home country but I have never put up with intimidation, lies, and subjugation.

Sure, I would like a raise, but don't forget, tuition at Thai Universities is about 20% what it is in the US and the UK, and there is no way foreigners or Thai instructors can make the same wage level as in the West. As far as respect goes, respect is not automatically given because of nationality. The colonial days are over and a white face does not earn you the right to have everyone darker than you call you masta. Don't forget, many English teachers working in Thailand have basically one qualification, they know their mother tongue. Does that automatically give one a high status in the world of education?