Farang EFL teachers' salaries totally unrelated to Thais - Ajarn Forum

PeaceBlondie · 1st February 2005, 19:55

For all practical purposes in the EFL profession in Thailand, there is absolutely no correlation between the salaries of Thai and foreigner teachers. None.

A. The farang is not Thai, not a govt. officer, not a native speaker of Thai language.
B. The farang is not a Thai citizen, and total annual expenses for visas may easily run 84,000 per year (averaging 7,000 baht per month).
C. The farang has no family here, no support network. If he wishes to see family, the 84,000 in part B may run to 108,000 per year (9,000/month).
D. Most farang are illegal workers, like Burmese street cleaners. Even with proper degree, they probably don't have work permit, proper visa, no permanent residency, etc.
E. They have a skill that 99% of the Thai EFL teachers will never have: native fluency in English. That alone puts them in a totally different labor pool or job market.
F. The farang get no pension, limited health insurance, no line of credit, no ability to own land or house in their own name, etc.

The salary of a Thai ajarn, school director, or prime minister have nothing at all to do with the day wages of a street sweeper, or a farang who teaches in native English. If the only two qualified farang who are willing to teach math or science in Udon Suckathai both want 85,000 baht per month, that is the prevailing wage, and the only supply.

sigmoid · 1st February 2005, 20:44

A. Foreign teachers don't really make that much more than Thai teachers. That's a myth. In some cases they will make less.

B. Who the heck spends 7000 baht/month on visas???

C. not sure about that - don't understand where you get the 108,000

D. If you're working illegally in Thailand it's your own fault. I doubt most foregners are doing so. But yes, most don't have permanent residency.

E. & F. True enough.

PeaceBlondie · 1st February 2005, 20:53

Replying to sigmoid's post:
A. True, I know teachers in the provinces who make 27,000 and 31,000/month, plus pension, benefits, cheap loans, etc.

B. One trip home per year (lowest round trip I can find is about 66,000 just for air fares). The one-year visa at the consulate, and at least three visa runs out of the country. Food and lodging while abroad, minimum 3000 baht per day, 8 days.

C. Side trips to see family, presents, loans that never get repaid, etc.: 22,000.

D. I'll bet that most farang EFL teachers in Thailand have spent between two months and two years illegal.

Snaff · 1st February 2005, 20:59

Poor brown trash....poor white trash.

:twogirls:

keegan · 1st February 2005, 22:26

Life in Thailand is hard. P.B i think i know where you are coming from. if you have made the decision to stay here, it's not an easy road. we don't get the benefits a thai teacher gets. we are employees. yet, for me, when the situation suits, I MUST DO MY DUTY. i work in a gov't school,S.W.k., have done for 5 years. been on 30k for the last 2. the workload has increased, nothing in return. WHY? " You get more than most Thai teachers do" i also have three different courses that i teach , exams to prepare, and the added challenge of teaching a foreign language. IF, IF iwasn't married to the best woman in the world, i'd be gone tomorrow. sometimes i just feel so down. P.B, you live in C.M, i,m just up the road. maybe you could p.m me and we could get together.

blackjack · 1st February 2005, 22:41

Quote:

Life in Thailand is hard.

ben bradley · 2nd February 2005, 00:54

wow , that's alot of generalizations peaceblondie

Ijustwannateach · 2nd February 2005, 05:58

There's a lot of sh!t on this thread, especially the stuff about lazy teachers here in Thailand working illegally, etc., etc.

Most schools will lie to you about visa stuff here. Technically, the visa is one's own responsibility- but an unsuspecting teacher could hardly be blamed for not knowing the depths of unprofessionality here.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Thai teachers and farang teachers are not in the same market. Schools which imagine this is so will quickly lose their farang teachers. Farang salaries are elevated because they don't enjoy either the benefits of long-term residency, local family, or corruption money (how many head teachers at schools drive BMWs? Lots where I am!), and they should be MORE elevated. Thai teachers get a lot fewer teaching hours in exchange for doing piddly-monkey stuff like decorating the school and rehearsing for the Happy Fluffy Dance Day.

"Steven"

PeaceBlondie · 2nd February 2005, 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben bradley

wow , that's alot of generalizations peaceblondie

Ben, I don't know exactly how you mean that. 'Generalizations' in the negative sense that they're so broad they don't mean anything? In the positive sense that, for the named points, they summarize a valid fact which of course always have notable exceptions? Other than the premise and conclusion (which hopefully I proved in the body of my original post), isn't a fact (for example) that 99% of the Thai ajarns who teach EFL will never have the fluency of a native speaker.

And to the person who referred to EFL farang teachers as 'half-wits' such people are in every country. Most of the posters on this board, and hundreds of silent lurkers on this board, are full-wits with some or lots of university education. Whether we shag birds or young men in our spare time has nothing to do with what salary we deserve for our daytime work. :twogirls:

So if the salaries of Thai citizens should have no impact on our salary determination, what factors should determine our salary?

Covertjay · 2nd February 2005, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by keegan

Life in Thailand is hard. if you have made the decision to stay here, it's not an easy road. .

So where else could a unqualified half-wit make enough money to drink huge amounts of beer, shag pretty girls, not live with their mums, work 25 hours a week, eat good food in restaurants most days and still clothe themselves......... not in the UK that's for sure.

Life in Thailand is a bloody walk in the park......it's when you leave that you realise how hard it is or when you return to the UK/west and realise how dam lazy you have become.

Nail on the head son.

paully · 2nd February 2005, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ijustwannateach

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Thai teachers and farang teachers are not in the same market. Schools which imagine this is so will quickly lose their farang teachers. Farang salaries are elevated because they don't enjoy either the benefits of long-term residency, local family, or corruption money (how many head teachers at schools drive BMWs? Lots where I am!), and they should be MORE elevated. Thai teachers get a lot fewer teaching hours in exchange for doing piddly-monkey stuff like decorating the school and rehearsing for the Happy Fluffy Dance Day.

"Steven"

Precisely, Steven. Thai and farang teachers operate in different markets and don't compete with each other for jobs. It's pointless to compare.

Covertjay · 2nd February 2005, 07:57

Thai teachers are in massive debt..............

1.6.4 Teachers' Debt Situation

A large number of teachers in Thailand have had financial difficulties due to the minimal salary received which cannot match their living expenses. A survey on debt situation of teachers under the Ministry of Education conducted in September 1996 shows that 507,607 teachers (86.1% of total teachers) were in debt for many types of loans. The total teachers' debts in the formal system amounted to 81,162 million baht. The sources of their loans were such as Teachers Savings Union, commercial banks, financial institutions and other financial service institutions.

The two major causes of teachers' debts were, firstly, to buy cars or electrical appliances (30.6%), and secondly, to pay for daily living expenses (24.4%).

To help alleviating the teachers' debt problem, the Teachers Civil Service Commission has set up a revolving fund with a purpose to promote debt relief for teachers under the Ministry of Education. The fund provides loans with low interest rates which can help the teachers to pay for their previous debts with higher interest rates. This fund is expected to help boost the morale of teachers so that they can perform more efficiently, resulting in more effective teaching and learning.

In 1999, the number of teachers who were in debt was decreased. There were 378,058 teachers (78% of total teachers) in the formal debt system. However, the total amount of debts was increased to 95,361 million baht. Although surveys on teachers' debt in the informal sector were very limited due mainly to limited information revealed by the teachers themselves, it was estimated that in 1999, teachers' debts in the informal sector was totaled to 6,280 million baht.

Ijustwannateach · 2nd February 2005, 09:04

I remember one teacher at a school I taught at who was pulling in an 11,000B salary, but with 7,000B in loans garnished each month. She was laughing when she showed me the payslip- I asked what the loans were for, and she said "jewelry!" Her husband was rich and the money from her job wasn't necessary to the family.

"Steven"

GreatSage · 2nd February 2005, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

For all practical purposes in the EFL profession in Thailand, there is absolutely no correlation between the salaries of Thai and foreigner teachers. None.

A. The farang is not Thai, not a govt. officer, not a native speaker of Thai language.
B. The farang is not a Thai citizen, and total annual expenses for visas may easily run 84,000 per year (averaging 7,000 baht per month).
C. The farang has no family here, no support network. If he wishes to see family, the 84,000 in part B may run to 108,000 per year (9,000/month).
D. Most farang are illegal workers, like Burmese street cleaners. Even with proper degree, they probably don't have work permit, proper visa, no permanent residency, etc.
E. They have a skill that 99% of the Thai EFL teachers will never have: native fluency in English. That alone puts them in a totally different labor pool or job market.
F. The farang get no pension, limited health insurance, no line of credit, no ability to own land or house in their own name, etc.

.

PB, you are 62 ? Is that correct? I can see how a lot of those things may apply if your newish to Thailand and at a more senior age and if you had no savings. I mean that in absolutely no way disrespectfully. More that, guys who come in their 20's / 30's / 40's have more of an opportunity to build a long term life in Thailand.

Re C: Most younger guys who do intend to stay tend to end up marrying. In their cases, that means they do have extended family / support in place etc. In some cases that may not be such a good thing

However, in my case (and I'm sure a lot of other people's) I have a brilliant family on the wife's side. Very nice, extremely kind hearted people. (Before anyone asks, no... we don't support them.)

Re D: Anyone serious about staying will get a WP.

Re F: Again, younger guys who live here may or may not get some sort of inheritance from 'back home' at some stage in the future. Even something smallish will make a nice sum in Thailand. That's not a pension, but it can serve as one I'm sure. Personally, at 34, I'm not thinking that far ahead.

Further, me on 35 K has a greater opportunity to save than a Thai Ajarn on 11k. I'd rather that 24K each month than a pension at 60. If used correctly, that gives people plenty of time to 'prepare'.

Let's put that 35-40 K in context. It's not just more than a Thai Ajarn, it's more than most Thai accountants, pharmacists, dentists and close to some doctors.

The one key point IMO is owning poperty. We've paid off ours by working 'back home' for 3 years. Not hard to do. Plenty of nice places a farang can own.

I'd not recommend any farang get involved in a mortgage in Thailand. I just feel that means your essentially 'trapped' into debt and work for too long. Who wants to pay off 2 million baht over 20 years? Go home and do it over 3 or 4 years. By the time that's cleared, age and retirement issues could be difficult to overcome. :sad:

PeaceBlondie · 2nd February 2005, 16:50

GreatSage, I don't know where you're coming from when you write,

"PB, you are 62 ? Is that correct? I can see how a lot of those things may apply if your newish to Thailand and at a more senior age and if you had no savings. I mean that in absolutely no way disrespectfully. More that, guys who come in their 20's / 30's / 40's have more of an opportunity to build a long term life in Thailand. "

Yes, I'm 62 and kind of new to Thailand (going on two years). I have savings, and lots of pension. How does that relate to the topic?

Good point, anyway, about the farang who marry a Thai and then do have a sort of network. Usually, generally.

You say that anybody serious will get a workpermit. Okay, let's say they'll TRY TO GET a WP. I can't, not in the province where I work. If I stayed there several more years, I probably might get one in the third or fourth year, if I kept trying.

Inheritances are great things, but if you're under 50, you may find that your parents live to the age that the Queen Mum and George Burns did. Or that your parents never leave you much money.

As someone points out, most of us aren't in a situation where we earn 24K more than the Thai Ajarn. I make about the same.

Absolutely: if one uses their spare change correctly, they have time to build their own pension. But that's George W. Bush's problem right now, trying to reform Social Security: younger people don't save. They wait until it's too late.

There, you've gone and done it again: comparing the salary of a farang EFL teacher with some other Thai. No correlation. If surgeons only make 18K/month total, and all the farang teachers in Udon Suckathai want 55K, then the going wage for farang teachers is 55K.

A farang can't really own real estate (except condos which are probably bad investments); only the legal Thai spouse can, and that's not the same thing. One doesn't migrate to a foreign country and marrya local citizen merely to invest in real estate.