Nonthaburi Project - Page 7 - Ajarn Forum

banjo · 7th December 2005, 20:42

I didn't see the end of the old thread so I have no idea if the original 'unofficial spokesperson' answered the questions I raised or not. But the points Rumpole and Torbek raise are valid and seem to beg answers.

Here's why this thing looks exaclty like every other Thai run TEFL initiative:

I'm sorry, but I've worked with Thai academics and teachers on TEFl programmes. Although in theory quite well qualified (MAs and even doctorates in TEFL or Applied Linguistics from overseas universities), none of the people I've worked with would stand a chance of getting a DOS or mangers job at a top level outfit. That's not because they are non -native speakers, it's that they haven't been exposed to working alongside people who REALLY know what they're doing - and what's more they lack the required management skills.

There seems to be this idea that good intentions are sufficent and that all it requires is motivation and a will to succeed. Unfortunately that's not the case. Simple common sense suggests that it requires genuine know-how and experience to succesfully manage a project of the magnitude of Nonthaburi; not to mention a thorough grounding in current TEFL theory and practice. The sort of people who are capable of it are VERY rare in Thailand simply because as high-flying TEFL careerists they can earn a great deal more money elsewhere. This being so, if the Thai government wants these kind of programmes to succeed they need to pay the proper rate to attract the few that are here out of their current jobs - or maybe outside people from overseas.

And here's where it all breaks down. Even if they were to offer the money - which they won't - Thai politicos and management will not hand meaningful authority to foreigners. ANY say in budget allocation? - you must be fucking joking! Real say in class ratios? - no chance! Real say in class selection or streaming? - no chance! Real say in testing outcomes? - haha! No-one who's in country and qualified and knows the score would touch it with a barge pole - for reasons of professional pride if nothing else.

I very much doubt if the flag-wavers and good-intentionists on here have ever been party to the Thai educational establishment's way of doing things. I'm not talking about the lower-management teachers here - they're basically worker drones - but the guys (they're all guys) who really run the system. They have a corrupt, self-serving, and past a certain level, extremely lucrative racket in place. While they might make the right noises, the people who run the show at government and provincial level have no interest whatsoever in changing the way things are done. They're doing far too nicely out of it and have too much to lose.

So unless this upper level has a change of heart, (and it's not going to happen) all these projects are going to be run by the compliant Thai worker drones who understand their place and don't rock the boat. The problem is that although they might be well-meaning - through no fault of their own they're not up the to job. It's a crying shame and I wish it was otherwise but - as I said before - the whole thing's doomed to collapse under the weight of corruption and incompetence. C'est la vie in the LOS.

bluffer · 7th December 2005, 22:26

woh! you have contracts that end in Feb and they want to start the next contract in May?

WTF are you supposed to do in March and April? Live off air? Whatever happened to you cant get a WP without a 12 month contract?

ajarn farang · 7th December 2005, 22:29

Dear Mr. Banjo,

Yes, I am aware of the corruption, I have been a victim of it myself. I have done what I could to avert the problems which I encounter but with limited success. You are not going to achieve anything until you are able to find decent Thais who are willing to cooperate. Why do you think I have stuck my neck out by forcing the whole thing into the public domain? Because at the end of the day it's the kids that suffer and that is no fun for the teachers.

It is true also that the number of foreign teachers in positions of responsibility in this country can be counted on one hand. The chap at Ramkhamhaeng (he knows who he is) is the only one I know of that seems to have an actual title backed up by a large degree of autonomy but then he is highly experienced and therefore indispensable. It is no coincidence then that Ramkhamhaeng have a policy. Some Asian countries have a habit of taking an ethnocentric approach to selection of personnel and Thailand is quite obviously suffering badly from a lack of foresight.

They have got to start appointing good foreigners to positions of responsibility because the Thais will naturally lack a certain perspective and type of expertise. Foreigners are not constrainted by the krengjai scenario to the same degree; we're able to think outside the box.

How to win friends at influence people in Thailand though? I know what you don't do, and that's strut into their country as an ESL teacher and start telling them how things should be. We of course compare what we see in Thailand with what we see in our own countries but you cannot compare the G8 world with a developing one, not just yet. The more influential Thais you can befriend or coerce, the greater the leverage.

All we can do is our best, nobody can ask anymore of us than that. Regardless of the background, the only opinion we teachers need be concerned with are our own and those of our students who are in our care. We all know if we have done our job or not at the end of each day - after that come the bosses and the administrators.

There is frustration and there are distractions, sure, and none of us are rolling in it. It's as if the Thais seem to believe that we are here simply to suit them and help them out. They don't see that we have our own lives too. The money thing is always contentious but at my school I have managed to educate my colleagues regarding the very real financial sacrifices that we are making to aid them in their work. This didn't happen over night though and there were a number of discussions and arguments before we both understood where the other was coming from. I think they would term this cultural sensitivity.

I would put this question to them then (and will): if the Thais earned the same as we could back home would they themselves be content to work for us in low-paid jobs, as we do for them, in order to help us out? Or would they stay at home and make hay? I had a row with one of the secretaries at the university about this (which is never the way forward) but they seem to fail to comprehend that if they want good people then they had better ask nicely and at least reward us sometimes. I'm with you all the way there.

Give me the weekend to work on answering all your questions as best I can.

Added after 5 minutes:

Dear Mr. Bluffer,

You don't know the half of it mate. I'll tell you all about it tomorrow.

banjo · 8th December 2005, 00:17

Ajarn Farang,

Thanks for the input.

A couple of points.

Quote:

It is true also that the number of foreign teachers in positions of responsibility in this country can be counted on one hand.

I think you miss my point. It's not that foreign teachers are in a position of responsibility or not - it's that really top line guys are rare here. I'd hazard a guess, that outside of the BC, or IDP - they hardly exist. I'm not talking about classroom teachers - I've taught with some great ones - I'm talking about teacher/administrators with the background and know-how to put together and oversee large international-standard programmes. It requires specialist training and experience that most of us have never had access to.

Quote:

Some Asian countries have a habit of taking an ethnocentric approach to selection of personnel and Thailand is quite obviously suffering badly from a lack of foresight.

Again, I don't believe it's a lack of foresight. It's a wilful policy designed to keep prying eyes away from the graft. If you give people authority you have to give them power and access.

Quote:

How to win friends at influence people in Thailand though? I know what you don't do, and that's strut into their country as an ESL teacher and start telling them how things should be.

Why not? TEFL is TEFL and has empirically proven and recognised approaches and methodology that hold good everywhere. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference (bar a couple of minor points on L1 interference) if you're teaching in Timbuktoo or Thailand.

Quote:

Regardless of the background, the only opinion we teachers need be concerned with are our own and those of our students who are in our care. We all know if we have done our job or not at the end of each day - after that come the bosses and the administrators.

Right - up to a point. But if the incompetence, greed or apathy further up the line prevent me from doing my job properly, then I'm either going to make a noise about it or leave.

Quote:

if they want good people then they had better ask nicely and at least reward us sometimes.

Yes, I agree. And in a low wage economy a very large part of that reward is job satisfaction. A Thai colleague said to me one day 'you take it too seriously' to which I replied 'they don't pay me enough NOT to take it seriously'. My biggest beef here is that the students - not the teachers - are getting shafted. I do not like being party to fraud - which is basically what a lot of the education here is all about. The amount of money that's thrown at education here is more than sufficient to do the job - but most of it is either wasted or stolen.

Until that's resolved - caring too much will just get you hurt. So I guess we all have a choice. Either eschew our principles, or leave. As it happens I'm choosing the second route. I'd have been happy to stay in Thailand (and I'm actually keeping my home here for holidays) but the relentless mediocrity of Thai education has finally worn me down. I'm not bitter - I'm just bored with it all.

And at least in the Middle East if or when they they bugger me about they'll be paying for the privilege.

You go well - and good luck.

Added after 10 minutes:

Quote:

I imagine that someone, somewhere is involved in this "project" for reasons other than the philanthropic betterment of Thailand...

Accordingly, I am a little hesitant to offer constructive advice to someone's business venture...for now, anyway...

Excellent!!!

blackjack · 8th December 2005, 00:30

Quote:

And at least in the Middle East if or when they they bugger me about they'll be paying for the privilege.

Is it just me, or is that an unfortunate choice of metaphor when referring to the Middle East?

banjo · 8th December 2005, 00:43

I thought that one would get a comment.

I'm trusting that it will remain a metaphor though....

Umbuku · 8th December 2005, 12:41

hentaigaijin aka Adam has offered to email it to anyone who wants to read his rant.
From the other Nonthaburi Project thread.

kenkannif · 8th December 2005, 12:47

Yeah I PMed him this morning for it, wicked!!!!

trep · 8th December 2005, 15:16

I don't see any good intentions in this project at all.

I see only people laying their hands on big budgets and wasting money, completely irresponsible people. Percieved "good intentions" are only an excuse to spend more.

It's like overcharging for school milk - full of good intentions, that one - help the kids grow meantally and physically healthy.

Sad thing that there are people who actually believe in this shit about "intentions".

Unwell · 8th December 2005, 15:24

you're right trep, typical of thai policy makers forwarding a policy that while sounding good hasn't been realised or thought through properly.

i read at the weekend that t.r.t. is gonna hand over loads of pcs to up-country schools. sounds great eh? excpet that they're not going to bother training any of the teachers how to maintain them, teach with them or generally utilize them to their.

so, they'll get slung in some shed behind a school in nakhom nowhere, or become riddled with porn and bugs in some principals office.

t_ferguson · 8th December 2005, 15:42

What rant? I love rants...especially where Thailand and its education system are concerned.

kenkannif · 8th December 2005, 17:07

Not got the rant yet...sob!

Umbuku · 8th December 2005, 23:25

I wouldn't hold your breath for it. He sounds like he's trying to wind us up over the disrespect posted about his hot seat interview on the now mysteriously and conveniently lost thread.
I wonder if Johnny Carson ever had days like that.

Back on thread. I would still like to know who this Nonthaburi Provincial Administration Organization (or whatever their real name is) is up to?
They are the guys with the inside knowledge. I agree with many posters that details are very thin on the ground.
What curriculum are they using?
Is it unified across all schools in the project?
What goals have been set for the project?
How are these goals being assessed?
Is planning underway to extend/expand the project into other provinces?

I've been trying to convince the Thais at my school to make inquires as we are in the same province and they may find themselves undercut and outmoded if this project is really the next wave. They smile and nod and say we can't do that.

Of course the ministries have the private schools by the balls and it would be very out of character for a private school to make inquiries of them. How western of me. If I was home I would be on the phone and found out all that could be learned in a day. Bloody Krieng Jai bullshit.

banjo · 9th December 2005, 12:12

Quote:

read at the weekend that t.r.t. is gonna hand over loads of pcs to up-country schools. sounds great eh? excpet that they're not going to bother training any of the teachers how to maintain them, teach with them or generally utilize them to their.

so, they'll get slung in some shed behind a school in nakhom nowhere, or become riddled with porn and bugs in some principals office.

Like the 'Self - Access' centre at a college here that's kept permanently locked!! It's only opened when the nobs come to get shown around.

Unwell · 9th December 2005, 12:17

exactly banjo, and isn't that sad. all those great resources wasted, all because a bunch of policy-makers and admin guys couldn't make the old 'a to b to c' connection. preferring the 'a to b' route, and then having a big, back-slapping, aren't we great celebration.