tazmanian

Sorry Matt and Ken,

I did think that this might be the case but I don't visit Ajarn that often and I couldn't see any threads on the topic. Can you link me to any?
Taz

ajarn farang

why not do a search you lazy fucker

tazmanian

I did. I searched under all forums and "classroom" with a couple of different strings, I couldn't find anything.

Thanks for your contribution to the topic, though.

Unwell

no, i'm afraid there's not many thread titles that'll cough up this kind of thread despite other threads often getting into this territory.

try 'qualifications', something like that might fare ye better.

__________________

"...ever wonder why they kill the weak ones, baby?"

ajarn farang

are you trying to be sarcy?

yeah soz about the spoiling tactics i'm usually up for an inchalekchall conversation innit. i think it's coz i'm a sad fucker who spends friday nights in bkk posting deep philosophical arguments instead of receiving head from luscious nubile brown ladies.

fruit this i'm off to get a pork chop and bottle of chang. over to you disraeli.

risktohimself

Not a very good analogy, I'm afraid. I know several people who drive rather well without ever having taken their driving test. Indeed, some of them are demon drivers. I guess they gained their experience "hands-on".

Bearing this in mind, wouldn't you agree then, that an unqualified teacher could justifiably be every bit as able as a qualified teacher?

I know you like this subject.

hentaigaijin

yes of course some people can drive well without taking their test but would you pay cash money to some who was spouting the odds to you yet did not possess a licence himself? maybe you would.. i wouldn't (and what i say goes bitch)

ps i reckon there's more to the english language than there is to driving a car (having said that i can't myself drive )

tazmanian

Well I guess THIS man is good evidence against accepting TEFL teachers.

For the person who made the driving instructor analogy, I understand your point. However, look at it this way - if you can choose from two instructors, one has only a minor instructors qualification but has been successfully teaching for ten years and has many students to vouch for his ability, the other has a higher quality qualification but is straight out of driving instructor uni and has never actually taught for real. Which one do you go with?

What if it was open heart surgery? One doctor with minimal qualifications but a successful surgeon for twenty years, the other has a doctorate but never actually did the surgery alone yet? Whom do you allow to operate on your husband/wife?

Taiwantroll

Yeah, I like the doctor analogy, but I am going to take it one step further. There have been cases of doctors who practice illegally, and gained their knowledge through self-study. They might be good doctors but without the credentials, are the 'real' doctors?

And doctors too have been around as long as teachers, and it is only in the last century that we have developed a way to licence doctors, and ensure qualifications. Does that mean that licencing is really not that important? I think not.

Also, in teachers college there was a student teacher who was practice teaching grade 4 students, and a friend of mine caught him checking out his young female students. He was a child molester waiting to happen. And he graduated but was refused his teaching licence on the basis that he could not perform well enough in his practicum. Proper licencing attempts to weed out persons like this.

Now licencing in Thailand and in your home country are quite different. Does a licencing here make you a real teacher, if you don't have a licence at home? If licenced to teach English, then I would say 'yes'. But I have met a number of teachers here who teach subjects other than English, with no qualifications. I don't know if that is legal, but I believe it is unethical. They are not trained to teach other subjects and should not be doing so.

Taiwantroll

PeaceBlondie

Yeah, it has been beaten to death, this 'qualifications for EFL teachers in Thailand' subject.

If taken far enough, any analogy breaks down. Elective surgery is so specialized, it hardly applies to teaching English classes of 50 students per class, three times per day, in Thailand. I'm going to get shoulder surgery soon, and I skipped right over those Thai doctors at Samitivej and Bumrungrad who don't even list their quals on their hospital's website, even if those are the best hospitals in southeast Asia.

The far-fetched examples of "I knew a bloke once, straight off the ditch digging crew, wot could do quadratic equations in 'is 'ead" and "My 9th grade Spanish teacher couldn't even teach the tiempo imperfecto" are exceptions that TEST the rule. Usually, rules make sense.

__________________
"The times I've been mistaken, it's impossible to say" - by the Moody Blues

ajarn farang

ha ha and for once peaceblondie you make perfect sense some very good points raised by both taz and taiwantroll too.

i think it also depends on your students and their level: because of the enormity of the english language their is a lot of scope not just merely to teach students english but also to educate people in more general terms. if a teacher has never bothered to obtain a degree then are they really that 'turned on' by education. furthermore, teaching is a noble profession and one would expect some form of 'apprenticeship'; the girl who becomes a hairdresser starts out by sweeping up the hair from the shop floor. yes, a teacher of efl can teach english without a degree but i personally have no respect for those not interested in pursueing said course of study.

i believe that every teacher should be working towards this because for one thing the thais use this as an excuse to depress wages by hiring unqualified teachers. can anyone help me out here and tell me what are the ways of gaining a first degree whilst working in thailand.. i recall bruce from tefl international mentioning something about an indian university but i heard some thing also about obtaining credits towards an award through work.. what are the distance learning options? what can be done at universities in bkk?

Gipkik

The problem with using analogies is that they create false arguments. I am a qualified teacher and I am also an autodidact. I gained very little from the formal educational process that I couldn't have learned on my own and did. Granted, most students in teacher training programs need to gain the knowledge that the school offers, but, at the same time they become part of a process, full of theories of questionable value (child-centered education and holistic language learning are fraught with controversy as theories that just don't translate in the classroom).

There are a lot of teachers out there who learned on the job. They are capable of this because they are autonomous learners and able to take criticism (their own and from others). They are also perceptive and willing to experiment to see what works. These attributes are not taught in any educational institute I know, but they are essential to creating a good teacher. In fact, CELTA works because of these qualities. It is such a short program that it can only touch on many points of what makes a good ESOL teacher. The rest is up to you. It is essential for the less intelligent and less creative, but to argue that all English teachers require it just shows how brainwashed some of you've become with regards to a credential. A credential is a short cut and a byproduct of a materialist, process-driven capitalist society. And I'm no Marxian.

And the fact that this argument has been done to death means that it is of perennial interest to a lot of people. The argument is only done for the complacent. And these people really can't be good teachers because learning never stops mates. And an interesting personality can only hide incompetent teaching for so long.

risktohimself

[quote="
What if it was open heart surgery? One doctor with minimal qualifications but a successful surgeon for twenty years, the other has a doctorate but never actually did the surgery alone yet? Whom do you allow to operate on your husband/wife?[/quote]

All depends on the state of your relationship with your husband/wife.

Gipkik

What is it with you guys and these analogies? Apples and oranges for Christopher Columbus sake!