Thread: Defining "Thainess"

One complaint I often hear (as a teacher in a government school), is that education given by foreign teachers will, somehow, make Thais lose their Thainess. The director of a government school school, in stating why he only wanted an MEP and not an EP, stated, ". . . we don’t want to lose our own Thainess, our culture or our traditions. So we only use English for certain subjects." OK, afraid to lose the "Thainess." So how do you do that? How do you lose Thainess?

My first thought was through complete eradication of a population. The Spanish tried that in central and South America approximately 500 years ago, and while the Spanish were largely successful, there are STILL remnants of Aztec, Incan, and Mayan populations and cultures in existence. Hitler tried to eradicate the Jews during WWII, and couldn't do it. Various European nations tried that in Africa (although I will admit that, while entire populations were not exterminated, assimilation did occur. I'll get to that).

If complete population eradication doesn't work, what about assimilation? Can a cultural or ethnic group simply be "swallowed up" by another population? The "great melting pot," America, has tried to do this with all immigrants and just the opposite has happened; immigrants cling to their ethnic and cultural heritage much the same way Jerry Lee Lewis clings to his female cousins. African nations, still reeling after European colonization, still manage to hold on to various aspects of their culture. Even India manages to blend Indian culture with English traditions. You don't hear India moaning about losing her "India-ness." In Thailand, the Chinese, through business ownership, political control, and intercultural marriages, have done more destruction of "Thainess" than any other cultural or ethnic group, but you don't hear the Thais complaining about that. In fact, it seems to be the opposite - Thai/Chinese people seem to be on the TOP of the food chain here. So how else can you lose something?

Thainess doesn't seem to be like personal possessions - it's not something that can be misplaced or stolen. History has shown that cultural and ethnic groups can survive DESPITE assimilation or eradication. So what are the Thais afraid of? That us white-skinned foreigners will wave a magic wand and everything Thai will disappear? How can that happen? English-speaking foreigners are less that one-sixth of Thailand's total population! By the numbers alone, losing Thainess due to the foreigners here seems impossible!

What this boils down to is three simple questions that can be answered by either the "old time" expats here, or any Thai readers on this board:
1. Define Thainess - what is it EXACTLY? And don't tell me it cannot be defined, as other cultures can be defined REGARDLESS of their population spread around the world.
2. How can you lose it?
3. Why are you so afraid of English-speaking foreigners taking it from you, when we are such a minority in your country?

A couple of comments here, but no definitions.

I doubt that English-speaking foreigners make up 2% of the population of Thailand, except in Pattaya, and that doesn't count.

I think we're talking about culture. You don't lose a culture by merely becoming bilingual. But if immigrated families stop speaking their native tongue, they usually lose their native culture as well. That's assimilation.

I doubt that teaching one to ten hours of English, as TEFL'ers or as teachers of EP or MEP, does much at all to their education, let alone their culture. I teach English and Math, but it's a stretch to say that I teach much Anglo-American culture, even when I play Santa Claus. Oh, come to think of it, we DO teach a culture that's foreign to Thailand: CREATIVE THINKING & ANALYSIS.

TEFL teachers aren't cultural missionaries. But TV, pop music, fashion, and merchandising - those teach that deadly culture called 'consumerism.'

But TV, pop music, fashion, and merchandising - those teach that deadly culture called 'consumerism.'

True, but China has been bitten by the "consumerism" bug, and you don't hear them complaining about losing their "Chinese-ness."

That's a tough one Wangsuda. I've asked a few Thai people I am friends with, including my bf, and none of them could give me an answer. In a nutshell, "To understand, you need to be Thai," was the common response.

I looked on the internet for, "Thainess," and came across this beauty:

The Thaksin government has identified tourism, food, fashion, software and automobiles as potential sectors in which Thailand can attain a competitive edge.

Jain, who has been a visiting professor at Sasin, said the four concepts of fun, fulfilment, friendliness and flexibility could provide an underlying framework for policy-makers to further build a marketing strategy for Thailand.

The four concepts, he added, were unique to Thailand, and could not be found in other countries

None of these four concepts are in no other countries? Looking at that, a person could believe that Thainess is actually a way of saying that Thai's are ignorant and have a false feeling superiority of the world by thinking other countries do possess these concepts. Does Thainess equal ignorance?

No put down to Thailand, but rather to those notions. Friendly? Yes, many people are very friendly here, likewise with other countries. I must say, I've also had some of the most unfriendly experiences here, the latest being last evening. That's another story. Fulfilment? Well, that's very subjective. Fun? When does the "fun" stop and personal responsibiltiy begin? I look at the typical classroom and the normal Thai teacher response..."Don't be serious. Make it fun." Is "fun" another word for being irresponsible or lazy? Flexibility? What is flexible here? Sometimes the traffic will keep you behind, but then again, past employers in other countries have been very flexible and understanding as well. Flexible, as in, lack of responsibility?

I love the way that term is half-assed defined. If I find out what "Thainess" is, I'll be sure to let you know.

Source for the above quote:

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/.../021218tnt.htm

Maybe that's what Thainess is - half-assed defined terms?

During my studies in rhetorical communications and cross cultural education, I learned that ANY:
1. culture, sub-culture, splinter culture
2. Language, dialect, variational/regional spin-off
3. Religion, splinter religion, cult
4. Ethnicity, sub-ethnicity, ethnic mixture
Can be analyzed and classified, both qualitatively and quantitatively. There are too many studies that bear this out; too many peer-reviewed journals that prove this point again and again. To say that "Jain, who has been a visiting professor at Sasin, said the four concepts of fun, fulfilment, friendliness and flexibility could provide an underlying framework for policy-makers to further build a marketing strategy for Thailand. The four concepts, he added, were unique to Thailand, and could not be found in other countries" shows nothing but ignorance. To further say that "to understand Thai, you need to be Thai," shows nothing but ignorance AND stupidity.

My question (stated simply) is this: how can you lose something if you don't even know what it is? In order to lose Thainess, Thainess must be clearly defined; that way, you know EXACTLY what you are losing. So here's you chance, Thai nationals, tell me what (exactly) Thainess is. Tell me in clear terms. And tell me how you are losing it to less than 2% of your population. And if you're really good, tell me how "whitey" is taking it away from you while the Chinese are not. I guess what I am saying is "put up or shut up."

At dinner tonight, I asked my longtime boyfriend, a 37 year old native Thai, what Thainess is. It's not a term that translates from English to Thai. He had no idea what I was talking about. Now, maybe if I could explain it in english, he could come back with his version.

Wangsuda, who uses this term? Do they have any idea what they mean? Nihilism says that nothing exists, and if it existed it could not be understood. Last of all, nihilism says that even if it could be understood, it could not be communicated to another person. Sounds like Thainess is nothing.

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

Wangsuda, who uses this term?

The director of my school. See the link I provided in my first post. However, he is afraid I can take it away, which is why he only wants an MEP and not an EP.

Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie

Do they have any idea what they mean?

Probably not.

Is there no one who can define this term? I was hoping for something better than what I have formed (which will be shared later). Dammit people, this is YOUR chance to define a culture and have it in print! Where are the ideas?

I'm going to guess that when the phrase is quoted by the reporter, "We don't want to lose our Thainess, our traditions and culture," your Director means Thai traditions and culture. Okay, so your MEP program teaches math, science, and Engish. Even the EP programs don't teach Thai language, Buddhism, Thai arts & music, or Thai history. If their Thai staff really teaches, and the students really learn, then the Thai staff's still in charge of the Thai-Thai/Thainess subjects. Is world history and world geography going to make them lose their culture? It doesn't do that in any other country we can think of, does it?

Maybe he doesn't want a large staff of non-Thai educators controlling his students. Wangsuda, do you play American or Aussie music all day? Do you force them to google for the latest news of Cristina Aguilar? Do you forbid them to use Paradorn as an example in writing English? Do you prattle on endlessly about Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, or GWBush? I doubt it.

"Thainess" is enough. We all have an idea of what it means (cuz we've lived here), but we still keep our own perceptions.
Obviously, a Thai and a thai-xpat's versions would differ (in every context).
Define Americanism or 'how to be a European, hell!... we'll get every version known if we let that thread run.
thainess means = "the coolest people on earth till you piss them off," to me.

I'm neither an "old time" expat or a Thai reader. I do have daily contact with people that have lived here for most of their life and have a very good grasp on English. I also get to see Thai workers at their best/worst. This allows me to ask questions and obtain answers about Thai culture that most newcomers would take a while to figure out on their own. What I've picked up and opinions about Thailand since my arrival:

It may not necessarily be just the teachers that make Thais lose their Thainess. It just so happens that being a foreign teacher, that's how they express their concern but aimed at your position.

1. I don't think it's something that can be defined EXACTLY. It's one of those things that you just know when you see it. There are generalizations and stereotypes of Thais but nothing concrete. To me, culture is a big part of it. I see the carts/stalls on the road and I think of Thainess. Their confusing ways of conducting daily life, their attitude about life, their food, etc. all are part of Thainess.

2. You'll know when you lose it. We find certain Thai quirks and differences to be either annoying or refreshing when compared to our respective homelands. This is the Thainess that can be lost. Sure, Thais would probably be better off losing some of their Thainess but maybe they don't want to lose it. Maybe they enjoy sitting in traffic, maybe they don't want to lose their careless attitudes, maybe they like not being efficient, maybe they hate it when Westerners judge them by Western standards and expect Thais to change to meet Western expectations of civilization. Hell, I find a lot of things about Thais annoying but what can you really do? I'm a guest here, I'm gonna have to live by their rules. Ranting and raving about how the Thais do this or how they are like that might help me feel a little better temporarily but nothing has really changed.

3. Well one part of it is their language. Doesn't the King come out every year and berate the Thai's for their laziness and loss of language? Their laziness to pronounce the "r" correctly in words and their adoption and bastardization of the language are some of the highlights. Thai kids don't go around wearing clothes bearing Thai words/logos. The hip kids wear stuff that Western kids wear. They sport Western brands. They love to emulate Western culture. What are the chances that these kids are going to lose their love for Western culture as they grow older? Very small. Soon the Thai culture will just be a mixture of the old Thai and Western. Foreigners make a small percentage of the population but they their culture has an extremely large influence on the youth of Thailand. That's what they fear, being less Thai and more Western.

This of course is entirely based upon my opinions. Being late, my thoughts are somewhat jumbled so please excuse me if my post isn't entirely coherent. You've all been here longer than I have and so probably have better insight than I do. I just wanted to offer my two cents.