How Thai interfers with learning English - Page 4 - Ajarn Forum

stfranalum · 17th February 2008, 12:09

hey MikeS...thanks for the info.

a bit too "laundry list" to make any real sense of it...although its ripe with info.

maybe we (or someone!) should categorize it and break it down into teachable patterns. eg: groups of problems which can be addressed by a teacher. i for one would be interested in seeing the larger, macro issues at play here. and if i have time, i'll try to tackle grouping these.

the groups...is that already in the book, already?

Guy Mandude · 17th February 2008, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamster

It seems like 'determinism' is too strong. Linguistic Relativism? I don't know what the proper term would be.

Determinism would be the world you know or can think about is determined by the language you know and your language's grammatical structures. Language shapes thought.

Hamster · 17th February 2008, 12:20

Yep - to strong for sure. I would be inclined to believe that the world you know or can think about is strongly influenced by your language's grammatical structures. Language helps to shape thought.

Cyrille · 17th February 2008, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Mandude

And you're right...I'm not getting "it" or you.

Two possibilities here:

1) You really are so thick that you can't see you misread my post and took it as a jibe at your expense when it was just a comment on topic.

2) Your pride is so badly wounded by your serial balls ups that you're over defensive and therefore unable to process simple input.

Hope that's straightforward enough for you. If I need further tips on how to communicate with someone whose shoe size clearly exceeds his IQ then I'll be sure to ask.

In the meantime - welcome to my 'ignore' list.

av8tor · 17th February 2008, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Mandude

Determinism would be the world you know or can think about is determined by the language you know and your language's grammatical structures. Language shapes thought.

What about if a person is fully bilingual? I can't figure that one, as even dreams are likely to occur in either language. Which language shapes thoughts?

Guy Mandude · 17th February 2008, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by av8tor

What about if a person is fully bilingual? I can't figure that one, as even dreams are likely to occur in either language. Which language shapes thoughts?

If you believe thought is pre-verbal, then neither language shapes thoughts.

Boonmee · 17th February 2008, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamster

Possibly. I think it would probably depend on the situation. There are some concepts in Thai like 'greng jai' or 'nam jai' that can be difficult to fully appreciate being a westerner. A Thai knows what they mean almost instinctively. Even with our perhaps more complex language we can't fully describe it.

This is a very good point (although I would say that "nam jai" simply means "generosity"). "Greng jai", on the other hand, seems to be a collection of concepts in English, ie depending on the context: "respect for one's superiors"/"fear of imposing or putting someone out"/ even "embarrassment".

The fact that Thai has just one phrase, where English must use many, would suggest that this is an important concept in Thai culture (and as we all know, it is). This is turn suggests that culture influences language (rather than vice-versa). Does this not also suggest that thought influences language, rather than language influencing thought?

Incidentally, the long-winded way in which English must translate "greng jai" is no different to that in which Thai must translate "inculcate". Also noteworthy is that where English has just one conception of "jealous", Thai has two: "Heung" (ie when the attentions of the person to whom one is attracted/with whom one is in relationship are being monopolised by someone else) and "Itchaa" (to be jealous of someone due to a perception of their superiority [financial/intellectual, etc] over one). This to me suggests that neither language is necessarily more "articulate" than the other.

Guy Mandude · 17th February 2008, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boonmee

This is a very good point (although I would say that "nam jai" simply means "generosity"). "Greng jai", on the other hand, seems to be a collection of concepts in English, ie depending on the context: "respect for one's superiors"/"fear of imposing or putting someone out"/ even "embarrassment".

The fact that Thai has just one phrase, where English must use many, would suggest that this is an important concept in Thai culture (and as we all know, it is). This is turn suggests that culture influences language (rather than vice-versa). Does this not also suggest that thought influences language, rather than language influencing thought?

Bravo!

Cyrille · 17th February 2008, 19:30

Mister Fixit · 17th February 2008, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asper

My dictionary has 650 pages for the English-Thai and 350 for Thai-English.

That's because Thai could in no way ever be described as a rich language.
-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Mandude

I don't envy ELF learners. Although Thai is a tonal language, how can anyone argue that English is not? There are endless combinations of sound stresses that can change the meaning of a sentence (or word!) in English - so English IS a tonal language, but the rules for using tones are ridiculously complex.

And I'd like to suggest that though the Thai dictionary may be shorter, this does not mean that Thais experience anything less profoundly than a native English speaker. Anyone care to make the argument for linguistic determinism?

They may well experience something just as profoundly, but the limitations of the language mean at they cannot express what they feel as profoundly as if they were using English.

English is a FAR richer language and far more capable of expressing complex feelings, concepts or whatever than Thai, which is very limited in that respect.

And it is precisely that limitation of language that limits the Thai intellect.
-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrille

There's no 'thought' involved in your example.

Precisely.

One NEEDS vocabulary as a tool to think. How can one think effectively without a tool to express those thoughts?

Which is precisely what language is - a tool. The sharper the tool, the sharper the thoughts. And Thai, as a language, is decidedly dull, in both senses of the word.
-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boonmee

...So it's in our analysis of an experience that we use language. I think I would concur. But that would suggest that speakers of English would be better able to analyse a situation than those of Thai, right? Or perhaps it would depend on the situation, and a generalisation like this isn't possible?

Exactly. When a people labiour under a language which is not too capable of expressing complex thoughts, ideas, concepts and emotions, then they are intellectually impoverished due to that very inability.

It is precisely why English speakers can analyse - AND EXPRESS THOUGHTS ON - a situation better than a Thai can.

Which is why Thailand will remain what is still essentially a third world country, despite the trappings of globalisation, such as McDonalds, computers and mobile phones etc., all of which came fromWestern countries with logic at the heart of language

LDMA · 17th February 2008, 23:44

I've spaced the OP out a little so I can stick this thread in this weeks newsletter.

Citan · 17th February 2008, 23:57

I think I can give a pretty good example of what Mister Fixit was talking about here...

Quote:

but the limitations of the language mean at they cannot express what they feel as profoundly as if they were using English.

A big example, as notated famously by Eric S. Raymond, is that English is the language of choice when talking about technological things and explaining technology within the technology circle, because of its rich vocabulary, especially when it comes to technical things. Linus Torvalds, creator of the Linux kernel, comments his code in English, and notes his English speaking ability played a large part in drawing attention to the project and getting people to help out and such in the beginning.

Furthermore, as Eric S. Raymond notes that that many people who speak the same language will switch to English when needing a more technologically capable description or some such. This makes its best showing in the hacker community, which is by and most almost exclusively, based on numbers, English speaking when it comes to software, warez, code, and technological things.

Even in China where the people tried so hard to use Chinese only for computer things, the government had to adopt the standard language for information (IE: calling it a firewall or DNS or DHCP instead of whatever Chinese name they had for it) just so people could keep up with those Chinese who were already tech savy thanks to their runs in the underground.

I think this is at least one, I think it a good example though, to illustrate the point.

Boonmee · 18th February 2008, 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Fixit

It is precisely why English speakers can analyse - AND EXPRESS THOUGHTS ON - a situation better than a Thai can.

Which is why Thailand will remain what is still essentially a third world country, despite the trappings of globalisation, such as McDonalds, computers and mobile phones etc., all of which came fromWestern countries with logic at the heart of language

I think this could be taking it a bit far. I don't think development is solely based on language! Take the Arabs, for example. Arabic, as it is based around three-letter roots, can be adapted to create any verb you could think of, and from that base, any noun or adjective. Suffice to say, Arabic has any extremely rich vocab - and, yet, most of the Arab countries would today be considered "developing countries".

av8tor · 18th February 2008, 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Fixit

One NEEDS vocabulary as a tool to think. How can one think effectively without a tool to express those thoughts?

Wholeheartedly disagree. Thought does not depend on language. Expression does. But to say that you cannot think effectively without expression is ridiculous.

Guy Mandude · 18th February 2008, 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Fixit

That's because Thai could in no way ever be described as a rich language.
-----

And it is precisely that limitation of language that limits the Thai intellect.
-----

This is the ultimate statement of linguistic determinism. In the above statement, thoughts are limited by the vocabulary, and Thai is labeled a shallow and "dull" language.