How Thai interfers with learning English - Page 6 - Ajarn Forum

Jack Straw · 19th February 2008, 16:52

Hamster

Wow

Did a little vocational training in fluid dynamic myself, but that topic you wrote about is way over my head.

MikeS · 19th February 2008, 18:01

I agree there isn't much, but there is some. I think the Chula journal has published quite a bit, but I don't have time to look for it now. I have a copy of an article upon which the notes I posted about Thai L1 interference in L2 were based, but it's too long to post here (10,000 characterl post limit). I know someone who is close to finishing a phd thesis on how to administer schools to enhance English learning.
I'm quite a long ways off publishing myself, but I am developing a research proposal now on marking students work, and I'd also like to do something on ways a Thai L1 intereferes with an English L2.
Meanwhile, I'm just occupied trying to get through my masters coursework.

Nanog · 19th February 2008, 18:04

I don't like the term 'interfere' with regards to Thai's influence on learning English. You will find that English also 'interferes' with learning other languages too.....probably more so than any other language.

MikeS · 19th February 2008, 18:13

Thats true about English but interfere is a technical term used to describe the effect of L12 on L2, whatever languages are involved.

Guy Mandude · 19th February 2008, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Straw

Give me a list of 10 foreign teachers in Thailand that have published in peer-reviewed journals? Ok, how about 5?

Up until now, I just thought you were trying to play devil's advocate, winding up some posters and challenging others to re-examine their attitudes about work. This comment casts you in a different light, that of a patronizing academician. If legitimate academicians only publish in the West, why aren't you there with them, all jerking off into your respective bibliographies?

Jack Straw · 20th February 2008, 11:59

GM

You missed the point completely.

aging one · 20th February 2008, 14:57

here is a picture out of facebook of Jack and his brother zack.

peelieorion · 20th February 2008, 15:30

I'm not sure it the Thai language that impairs the learning of english at all. Sure some elements of grammar are a little confusing ie adjectives the opposite way round and no real tenses. I truly believe its Thai culture that predominantly interfers with learning English. More specifically this idea that teachers should give information rather than challenge students with open questioning. Thai students are rarely encouraged to engage in the learning process or even to speak. Thai students are not taught to questions and challenge and think at a deeper level., Whenever you see them on T.V speaking, they're usually reading from their books rather than recting to a question. Students brains are trained not to think and we have to reverse this trend of one word answers. On top of that far to many thia english teachers use overcomplicated english and then proceed to translate every word. Problems with pronounciation I believe are entirely down to the Thai teachers and years of memorising words rather than reading them consisely. My younger Pratoms have almost flawless pronounciation as they read the words and haven't had years of listening to poor pronounciation.

Guy Mandude · 20th February 2008, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Straw

Give me a list of 10 foreign teachers in Thailand that have published in peer-reviewed journals? Ok, how about 5? That is not to say that that every teacher in Thailand should be involved in academic endeavors, but nevertheless, few are.

Yes, I've earned only a lowly masters degree, so my "academic endeavors" are inferior to yours. You pull this "publish or perish" trump card as if waving your Ph.d around makes you Zeus shaking a thunderbolt at the mere mortal teachers on this forum. But I will say this: I'd trade 20 of your "scholarly" publications by doctorates such as you for each trial-by-fire lesson plan that a REAL teacher has successfully applied in a Thai classroom.

MikeS · 23rd February 2008, 07:04

Quote:

I'm not sure it the Thai language that impairs the learning of english at all. Sure some elements of grammar are a little confusing ie adjectives the opposite way round and no real tenses. I truly believe its Thai culture that predominantly interfers with learning English. More specifically this idea that teachers should give information rather than challenge students with open questioning. Thai students are rarely encouraged to engage in the learning process or even to speak. Thai students are not taught to questions and challenge and think at a deeper level., Whenever you see them on T.V speaking, they're usually reading from their books rather than recting to a question. Students brains are trained not to think and we have to reverse this trend of one word answers. On top of that far to many thia english teachers use overcomplicated english and then proceed to translate every word. Problems with pronounciation I believe are entirely down to the Thai teachers and years of memorising words rather than reading them consisely. My younger Pratoms have almost flawless pronounciation as they read the words and haven't had years of listening to poor pronounciation.

All of that is true to some extent I think, but its about habits and practices which is a different thing to what I was talking about in the original post, which was specifically about linguistic interference caused by language differences. I think both practices and linguistic differences have an effect, to varying degrees.

Guy Mandude · 24th February 2008, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeS

All of that is true to some extent I think, but its about habits and practices which is a different thing to what I was talking about in the original post, which was specifically about linguistic interference caused by language differences. I think both practices and linguistic differences have an effect, to varying degrees.

I think epenthesis occurs as an intererence in many L1s trying to perfect English pronunciation. Spanish speakers add an "e" prefix to pronounce some English words, and Thais may add a vowel sound after an initial consonant (i.e., "sa-leep") to pronounce other English words - maybe those with initial consonant clusters that are difficult to pronounce. If the interference does not prevent the L1 from carrying on a comprehensible conversation, then there's no problem.

The biggest interference in Thai (and other Southeast Asian languages) occurs in minimal pairs having "l" and "r" sounds because Thais simply cannot hear the different between the pairs. I think when comprehension is impacted, then you have true interference. Thais also have difficult in differentiating "13" and "30" and other teen numbers. Not sure why though.

Matthew · 25th February 2008, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Mandude

I will say this: I'd trade 20 of your "scholarly" publications by doctorates such as you for each trial-by-fire lesson plan that a REAL teacher has successfully applied in a Thai classroom.

I find Jack's assertion above that improving English language learning in Thailand might be helped by TEFL teachers publishing in peer-reviewed journals the perfect example of an upper-storey ivory tower view with no real connection to education-in-action. I'll likely be studying for a post-graduate degree in the near future, btw - I'm not anti-academy, but your consistant belittling of teachers on this forum reminds me what lies in wait. You're the great whale in our little pond here, huh...

That said, your being such a smart person as well as a very regular poster on here, I do really like to hear what you know about teaching and how it is done best - about the state of education in Thailand, techniques, theory and whatever else. But as you can see for yourself, when you mix your knowledge in with a fair bit of extremely snotty sounding judgement and a good deal of assumption about the work, habits, and personalities of the anonymous posters you are obstensively in dialogue with, your whole point (you did seem to have one) goes out the window and you spend most of your time reacting personally to the people trying to understand you. IMO not activity truly worth of a tower made of lovely solid ivory!

TarasBalba · 5th July 2008, 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citan

I think I can give a pretty good example of what Mister Fixit was talking about here...

A big example, as notated famously by Eric S. Raymond, is that English is the language of choice when talking about technological things and explaining technology within the technology circle, because of its rich vocabulary, especially when it comes to technical things. Linus Torvalds, creator of the Linux kernel, comments his code in English, and notes his English speaking ability played a large part in drawing attention to the project and getting people to help out and such in the beginning.

Furthermore, as Eric S. Raymond notes that that many people who speak the same language will switch to English when needing a more technologically capable description or some such. This makes its best showing in the hacker community, which is by and most almost exclusively, based on numbers, English speaking when it comes to software, warez, code, and technological things.

Even in China where the people tried so hard to use Chinese only for computer things, the government had to adopt the standard language for information (IE: calling it a firewall or DNS or DHCP instead of whatever Chinese name they had for it) just so people could keep up with those Chinese who were already tech savy thanks to their runs in the underground.

I think this is at least one, I think it a good example though, to illustrate the point.

Having a rich vocabulary to begin with does facilitate English's ability to describe these technical terms, but that is secondary to the following reasons (for English being used in the technological community):

1) English native speakers have contributed greatly to the foundations of computing and all of its technological baggage.

2) Non-English speaking inventors/developers/programmers give their new ideas an English name because they want their idea to be accessible to the widest audience.

Thai or Chinese names could be devised for all these terms. Just string enough words together.

Back to the topic, this is something I've been thinking about lately...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeS

The mismatch between spelling and pronunciation in English can cause many pronunciation problems for Thais speaking English. Another problem can be that English words can be misspelt in Thai, and then the user has trouble adjusting to the correct spelling.

I spent some minutes in class telling my M1-3 EP students that the way most English words ("top sop") are written in Thai does not correspond to the closest pronunciation possible given the sounds available in the Thai language.

An example is "cartoon". It is spelled กาำร์ตูน which is pronounced "ga-dtoon". Thai, however, is capable of pronouncing "ca-toon" if you use different letters: คาทูน.

I'm sure there are postings covering this topic in depth.

It is all well and good when they speak to each using the butchered loan words, but each time they learn a new English written word, they butcher it in accordance with this system.

Some info here regarding systems we use to transliterate Thai into our alphabet.

thai-language.com message boards: New page about romanization/transcription systems for Thai

MikeS · 8th July 2008, 13:46

Thats very interesting, thanks for that.

peelieorion · 8th July 2008, 18:29

The extent thai interferes with english often depends on how young you catch them and whether they have been taught to read or learnt through memorising. I can honestly say that none of my p2 have any pronounciation problems whereas P6 have more unlearning to do. geet them youngand teach them to read phonetically. also avoid books where they are given the phonetical translation because often they are translated wrong