Am I being pedantic here? - Ajarn Forum

tropic of cancer · 3rd October 2008, 17:25

A young arrogant woman (half-ethiopian, grew up in Brazil) teaches Science on my EP - she used to teach English (on-line tefl).

Anyhow we have an English camp and she's been put in chrage of one of designing one of the activities. I asked her what she was doing and it was tenses 'game': kids take a 'time' card (now, yesterday etc) and have to form sentences.

"Like say zey peek 'tomoreow', zey say 'tomoreow I will go to zuh Mall', for insstanz."

"Actually,' I say, 'in English you wouldn't really say that; unless perhaps it was in response to someone saying 'I don't think you're going to go to the Mall tomorrow.' "

A somewhat heated argument ensues whereby, she tells me she was a taught be an American ('veyry pro-fession-ale') and proceed to show me a grammar website which allegedly backed her up (of course it did no such thing, not that she was capable of grasping this).She mentioned the use of 'will' in the EP textbook (English Time 4) which she'd used last year. I excavated the book as an indication that even books are capable of clumsy constructions i.e. 'I will plant flowers in the Spring - not so much wrong as a poor introduction to the ways in which 'will' is habitually used. 'The fact is,' I said eventually, 'you're wrong to teach the use of will in the sense you mention. We don't use it that way.'

Were she not so up herself, I probably wouldn't have got so indignant and tried to pull rank. I know that SL users like 'will' because it's comprehensible and of course getting EP Pratom to say anything is beneficial. Hence I don't really care that she's teaching it.

Now, not only is she unaware she's essentially wrong, but she's convinced she's right, since English Time is published by the hallowed Oxford University.

Should I just not have said anything?

Welshman · 3rd October 2008, 17:41

It's that old chestnut regarding English grammar versus English usage.

To use 'will' in a sentence is gramatically correct but, as you rightly point out, in common usage it tends to imply emphaticness or determination.

There's a similar problem with using full verbs instead of contractions...

for instance

I'm going to the party tonight - indicates intent or future plan
I am going to the party tonight - indicates emphaticness and would generally be used by way of a response

You're not going to the party tonight.
I am going to the party tonight!

I quite often get students who tend to revert to the long form of the verb 'I am' 'I will' etc and I've tried explaining the different contexts but I'm not sure it gets through to them.

In this case I guess, especially as she seems to be pretty pig-headed and closed to arguments, I would give up trying.

fencesitter · 3rd October 2008, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

I know that SL users like 'will' because it's comprehensible and of course getting EP Pratom to say anything is beneficial. Hence I don't really care that she's teaching it.

So then what's your beef? Obviously there is more to this story than you are telling us. Does she have bigger breasts than you?

By the way, before you go complaining about grammar rules, you ought to learn some yourself. A lot of what you wrote is incomprehensible gibberish....do yourself a favour and stop trying to make yourself out to be a native speaker...clearly you are not...and if you are...Thailand really needs to tighten the regulations...

martyboy · 3rd October 2008, 17:49

Probably more acceptable as an answer to the question - "Will you plant flowers in the summer". "No, I will plant flowers in the spring".

Maybe 'going to' is better as a future intention. Can you really generalize? That's part of the richness of English.

stfranalum · 3rd October 2008, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

that even books are capable of clumsy constructions i.e. 'I will plant flowers in the Spring

dude, in an EFL context youre arguing that THAT is not a grammatical sentence?

i cant believe youre raising objection to an "i will" sentence. holy shit.

not only are you way off base, but are just - well - pedantic and needlessly arrogant. a typical example of a pebble in her eye and boulder in yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

Actually,' I say, 'in English you wouldn't really say that

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

Hence I don't really care that she's teaching it.

i dont care...but thought id tell her what shes doing is wrong, even if its prefectly normal to teach it. so, i'll fight with my coworker over a nonissue to ensure that i am the one who is regarded as "respected"

i dont know you, but its pretty clear that her leading the activity bothered you.

Lizara · 3rd October 2008, 17:57

I don't think he's off base or arrogant at all. He was just trying to explain to her how we usually speak in English. It sounded to me like he started out trying to be helpful. I don't think it's a big deal, though, especially with kids. They could certainly say "I will go to the mall" to an English speaker and be understood.

stfranalum · 3rd October 2008, 18:05

maybe i misread that....

i thought he called her out on

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

tomoreow I will go to zuh Mall',

taken from his arrogant, transliteration of her accent...demeaning not only what she said, but throwing in her accent as if to reduce its accuracy and boost his status of Naaaaaaaative Speeeeeaker

"Tomorrow I will go to the mall."

...i cant imagine any EFL teacher marking that as incorrect in ANY context. especially in a camp. WAY over the top.

Lizara · 3rd October 2008, 18:32

^I don't think we really ought to be speculating on his character based on one post... anyway, it's sort of beside the point, isn't it?

Personally, I'd teach the way I say it, but I don't correct the students if they've learned "will" from another teacher and are using it. There's really no need to bother them with the nuances of will vs. be going to at that level. It sounds like the exercise is mostly about having them practice using the correct verb tenses, which, IMO, is far more important.

stfranalum · 3rd October 2008, 18:41

speculating on what? i just read his OP. didnt misquote him either. seemed arrogant and insecure to mock his colleagues accent. the point of the grammar is related to that in the sense that he nitpicks her accent and nitpicks her lesson. same same.

zis iz zah veeh ve duu zings. <-- seems like a pretty arrogant way to demean a colleague who was just offering an example. seemed like a reasonable activity. "lets make an argument about it"

.....see his posts about getting mad at his students:

http://www.ajarnforum.net/vb/the-cla...classroom.html (Dealing with anger in the classroom)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropic of cancer

I go ape with my kids all the time, they're used to it. I feel bad if it's the younger ones

pattern? or speculation?

LoveBucket · 3rd October 2008, 18:57

liz, sorry but you're starting to sound like a headmistress

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizara

I don't think we really ought to be speculating on his character based on one post...

get thee back to acronym addicts and let the boys play

jonny danger · 3rd October 2008, 19:08

Quote:

'you're wrong to teach the use of will in the sense you mention

IMO she's wrong to teach grammar in a Summer camp. How about treasure hunt? How about a talent show? Songs?

WilliamBlake · 3rd October 2008, 19:21

You're ALL wrong. The accepted non-native speaker expression is: "Tomorrow I go to shopping." Perfectly understandable, and translates easily from the Thai with the use of any Talking Dict.

Don't go getting your knickers in a twist over such trifles, there's a whole language they have to learn before they can 'hear' the differences you are waffling on about. Mai bpen rai...

Grammar Monster · 4th October 2008, 03:53

Is the problem not pronunciation rather than grammar?

If we say 'I will go somewhere tomorrow' and stress 'will' it is rather emphatic, but if we don't stress will, and contract it, so that it sounds like: 'I'll go somewhere tomorrow', it seems perfectly fine to me.

Topper · 5th October 2008, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizara

^I don't think we really ought to be speculating on his character based on one post... anyway, it's sort of beside the point, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stfranalum

speculating on what? i just read his OP. didnt misquote him either. seemed arrogant and insecure to mock his colleagues accent. the point of the grammar is related to that in the sense that he nitpicks her accent and nitpicks her lesson. same same.

Thought there was a mods lounge for these kind of discussions, rather than arguing with each other publicly.

Let's face it. When someone posts a topic like "Am I being pedantic here? ", about 90% of the time the answer is yes.

Just my opinion though.

LoveBucket · 6th October 2008, 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamBlake

The accepted non-native speaker expression is: "Tomorrow I go to shopping." Perfectly understandable, and translates easily from the Thai with the use of any Talking Dict.

i know you are just messing billy boy, but this just about sums it up

if i can get this out of them, i go home happy