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Thread: Is Socialism Good in Theory?

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    Senior Member Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute Papa has a reputation beyond repute
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    Is Socialism Good in Theory?

    Socialism has been mortally discredited on economic grounds, thanks to Ludwig von Mises, F. A. Hayek, and history. But for many people it has not been discredited on moral grounds. You can tell this by how often people say that while socialism doesn’t work in practice, it is good in theory.

    Strange notion—that a theory which doesn’t work in the world can somehow still be good. Where else is it to be judged? One would think that a theory whose consistent realization requires gulags and secret police would be morally disqualified even if it “worked.”

    I guess the people who say socialism is good in theory really mean they regret that it doesn’t work without the attendant unpleasantness. Why should that be regrettable? The typical answer is that in socialist theory people are not acquisitive or self-regarding; they are more concerned about others. The regret about socialism turns out to be a regret about human nature.

    Leaving aside the facts that the taint on self-interest is assumed not established and that one prospers under capitalism by competitively attending to others, is this a valid statement about socialism? Originally socialism promised a superabundance of goods—so much of everything that no one would have to do without anything. Sharing would be unnecessary because scarcity would be abolished. Wasn’t that an appeal to acquisitiveness, even gluttony? To be sure, socialism’s miserable record has compelled its advocates lately to discover the “age of limits,” but that is only to make a virtue of necessity.

    Socialism of course did promise to reconstruct humanity, but the message was always mixed. It promised to subordinate the individual to society while liberating him to be fully himself—free of the necessity to make a living. Leon Trotsky wrote that “Communist man . . . will become immeasurably stronger, wiser and subtler; his body will become more harmonized, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx.” But the nice Bolshevik also said, “In a country where the sole employer is the State, opposition means death by slow starvation. The old principle: who does not work shall not eat, has been replaced by a new one: who does not obey shall not eat.”

    Was the new Socialist Man to be a self-centered achiever or group-centered worker bee? It was never clear how both could be accomplished.

    Maybe all that people mean when they lament socialism’s impracticality is that the theory held out hope for an end to material inequality. As intellectual historian Ralph Raico reminds us, it didn’t exactly do that. Marx promised only “to each according to his needs.” He never said we all have the same needs. Besides, it is capitalism not socialism that has achieved essential material equality.

    The ugliness of socialist theory now comes into focus. Under individualist and capitalist theory (and practice) each person is free to determine his own needs and, through the division of labor and voluntary exchange, to produce what’s required to satisfy them. (As the old Spanish proverb puts it, “Take what you want and pay for it.”) Under socialist theory the individual’s needs are determined and satisfied collectively. Dissent and venturing out on one’s own are not options. As Trotsky acknowledged, everyone is an employee and tenant of the collective—that is, the state.

    It’s a mystery why anyone would find that theory beautiful or regret that it doesn’t work in practice.

    http://www.fee.org/publications/the-...e.asp?aid=5082
    “Everyone carries a part of society on his shoulders; no one is relieved of his share of responsibility by others. And no one can find a safe way for himself if society is sweeping towards destruction. . . . What is needed to stop the trend towards socialism and despotism is common sense and moral courage.” Ludwig von Mises

  2. #2
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    Senior Member PeaceBlondie has disabled reputation
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    If the Just War Theory can be used as an absurd excuse for warfare for over 1,600 years without being critically questioned, then socialism can be viewed as the perfect system forever. And the fanatic proponents of rampant capitalism can carry on indefinitely without correcting the abuses of capitalism. If anything, modern capitalism should be causing folks to resurrect quotes from Marx.

    Then again, if we're trying to figure out perfect systems of govt., we might conclude the problem is with the concept of govt., not which system it should have.
    "The times I've been mistaken, it's impossible to say" - by the Moody Blues

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    New Member TroyPDX is on a distinguished road
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    Personally I believe that socialism is the perfect system when the number of people in that system is less than... let's say for the sake of argument 500... any more than that and it all starts to break down because power (which is a far different resource than capital, but even more dangerous) tends to consolidate and there is no direct accountability. That power tends to translate into indirect control over capital and then all hell really starts to break loose. It might even be far less than 500. Numbers bring out the worst in us because we can hide. To believe in socialism on a large scale you really have to believe in the innate selflessness of all people virtually all the time... even when no one is looking. You might as well belive in Santa Claus.

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    Senior Member spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff has a reputation beyond repute spliff's Avatar
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    Not unless you lobotimize self interest out of the population......anyway, read Animal Farm!

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    Established User skip spence will become famous soon enough
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    Socialism, as it exists in western europe, is a good system IMO.

    It's not a perfect system of course - however you might organise a society some people will benefit on the behalf of others, there's no way around that - but it seems to work just fine in most places [in Europe].

    Communism is clearly flawed because, as Spliff said, we're not selfless. Pure capitalism is also flawed as there are many problems the market can't and won't fix, as any objective economist will tell you.

    The way to go is finding a good balance between a liberal, competitive market economy and socialist ideas like regulations, public education and healthcare, wealth distribution and such. Some people just see red when they hear the word "socialism" or "capitalism", but the world isn't black or white, it's many shades of gray, to use a tired old phrase.

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    Senior Member mad_dog is a jewel in the rough mad_dog is a jewel in the rough mad_dog is a jewel in the rough
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    cut and paste

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    Regular User JointVenture is on a distinguished road
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    Like Spliff said, the problem isnt goverment or "systems" its Human beings being Human.
    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last.
    -Sir Winston Churchill

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    Nah the problem is that they wave red flags and call each other comrade.

    If they'd used a pastel colour and called each other buddy, the world would have accepted them.
    I keep my underwear up with a piece of elastic

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    Senior Member PeaceBlondie has disabled reputation
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    I'm having a related argument on another forum, about the nature of humanity. Humans are neither 100% evil-selfish, nor 100% generous-idealistic. Humans are both evil and good. A good government would reflect that. It is in the common interest of all people to have adequate health care and universal education. FDR, dead now for 60 years, spoke about basic human freedoms.

    Remember the movie "Wall Street," and the mantra of the 1980's? They said, "Greed is good." Of course, unadulterated greed is not good.
    "The times I've been mistaken, it's impossible to say" - by the Moody Blues

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    I Vill Break You Benedict XVI has disabled reputation Benedict XVI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBlondie
    I'm having a related argument on another forum, about the nature of humanity. Humans are neither 100% evil-selfish, nor 100% generous-idealistic. Humans are both evil and good. A good government would reflect that. It is in the common interest of all people to have adequate health care and universal education. FDR, dead now for 60 years, spoke about basic human freedoms.

    Remember the movie "Wall Street," and the mantra of the 1980's? They said, "Greed is good." Of course, unadulterated greed is not good.
    OP:

    1. First you have to define "socialism."

    2. Then you have to apply one of the many models of "socialism" that have existed, and then you have to attempt to apply them to the real world which will be difficult, because of the geographic, historical, agricultural, and racial and ethnic differences, and what kind of economy you are dealing with. Sweden is basically the most socialist country in the world, but the majority of the population is Swedish (my relatives).

    Or do you mean Socialist realism?

    Or do you mean Libertarian Socialism of which is practiced in certain parts of Pacific Island and African societies where there is no government.

    3. As for PeaceBlondie questions and discussions about human nature, is it even relevant?

    There were greed in the USSR. Greed in Guatemala. Greed in the USA, and of the colonists around the world.

    The type of economic system is irrelevant as to whether human are "selfish" or "sharing."

    It's not that simple.


    P.S. The "greed is good" comment was first uttered by Ivan Boesky, and was applied to a fictious movie called Wall Stree. Greed? It's in China, Vietnam, USA, Thailand, Europe, and Russia. Greed is individualistic, not societal in general.

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