9/11 Redux - Page 4 - Ajarn Forum

zazel · 6th March 2008, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric1

it's claimed that payout was never collected...think that's true?

No. I think someone very powerful, maybe from the illuminati collected the money and it was never made public.

esoteric1 · 7th March 2008, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by keeshou

As much as I dislike G.W. Bush, I've never harped on him for attacking Afghanistan.

That pretty much gets to the heart of why I started this thread.

Why do you give him a pass on that war? What makes you believe the story for that instance. After all it's the same bunch that cooked up the lies for the current war in Iraq.

keeshou · 7th March 2008, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric1

Why do you give him a pass on that war?

Good point Eso. Probably because the other things the Taliban did in Afghanistan (blowing up buddhist statues, preventing women from going to school or holding jobs) were also justifications in my mind to removing them from power.

However I felt that the Bin Laddan scenerio of being behind the 9/11 attacks were credible as well. The history of his organization and their stated goals (well before the event) seem to bear the this out. I've seen the alrenatives and it's not that I think that Bush and Cheaney aren't capable of thinking it up, it's just that the logistics of some of the CT theories would involve too many others who would've spoken up.

robitusson · 7th March 2008, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric1

the lies for the current war in Iraq.

Lies which were exposed and are widely accepted as being largely unfounded. The media and Joe Public were clever enough to understand these were lies, but only some are "clever enough" to get the 9-11 cover-up.

Now why is that?

There was an "official version", the term the conspiracy theorists like to use, about the WMD and the reasons for war. People saw through it. But the "cover up" for the 9-11 inside job, only a select few are clever enough to see through that. A cover up that would have to amazing in its complexity and would involve thousands of people, who have all remained bizarrely silent. But the relatively much more simple task of providing fraudulent evidence for WMD was beyond the wicked and scheming 9-11 inside job team.

Anyway this has been gone over a million times before. It boils down to a simple choice over whether someone wants to believe in the c.t. or not.

esoteric1 · 7th March 2008, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by keeshou

it's just that the logistics of some of the CT theories would involve too many others who would've spoken up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robitusson

A cover up that would have to amazing in its complexity and would involve thousands of people, who have all remained bizarrely silent.

I really don't think that's the case(complexity). And there have been plenty who have tried to speak up, but are shouted down, derided, or just given no 'air-time' whatsover in the mass media outlets.

The CIA videos 'proving' Osama's role in 9/11 have not convinced me at all. That was the prime reason given to strike Afghanistan.

This is the interview of bin Laden that I personally read straight off the Pakistani newspaper's site in September 2001. The link is now dead, but someone was smart enough to archive the interview.

Quote:

KABUL, Afghanistan (Ummat): Prominent Arab mojahed (freedom fighter) Usama bin Laden or the Al-Qaida group has nothing to do with the 11 September attacks on the Bush Administration, according to an Usama bin Laden interview with Ummat, the Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper. In his interview, Usama bin Laden pointed out that the Israeli regime is behind the 9-11 attacks. He expressed gratitude and support for Pakistan, urging the Pakistani people to continue their jehad against dictators, tyrants, traitors, crooks, criminals, dictatorships and tyrannies. Following is the text of Usama Bin Laden's interview conducted by a "special correspondent" and published in the daily Ummat on Friday, 28 September 2001. [The place and date of the interview was not given by Ummat.]

Daily UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel.

There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.

The U.S. has no friends, nor does it want to keep any because the prerequisite of friendship is to come to the level of the friend or consider him at par with you. America does not want to see anyone equal to it. It expects slavery from others. Therefore, other countries are either its slaves or subordinates. However, our case is different. We have pledged slavery to God Almighty alone and after this pledge there is no possibility to become the slave of someone else. If we do that it will be disregardful to both our Sustainer and his fellow beings. Most of the world nations upholding their freedom are the religious ones, which are the enemies of the United States, or the U.S. itself considers them as its enemies.

The countries which do not agree to become the U.S. slaves are China, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria [Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia] and Russia. Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the friends of the American people. I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed.

According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread.

The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself;

the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him.

Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.

Daily UMMAT: A number of world countries have joined the call of the United States for launching attacks on Afghanistan. These also include a number of Muslim countries. Will Al-Qaida declare a jehad against these Islamic countries as well?

USAMA BIN LADEN: I must say that my duty is just to awaken the Muslims; to tell them as to what is good for them and what is not. What does Islam says and what the enemies of Islam want? Al-Qaida was set up to wage a jehad against infidelity, particularly to counter the onslaught of the infidel countries against the Islamic states.

Jehad is the sixth undeclared pillar of Islam. [The first five being the basic holy words of Islam (There is only one God in the entire universe and Muhammad is the last Prophet of God), prayers, fast, pilgrimage to Mecca and giving alms (zakat).] Every anti-Islamic person is afraid of jehad. Al-Qaida wants to keep jehad alive and active and make it a part of the daily life of the Muslims. It wants to give it the status of worship. We are not against any Islamic country. We do not consider a war against an Islamic country as jehad. We are in favour of armed jehad only against those infidel governments, which are killing innocent Muslim men, women and children just because they are Muslims.

continued below

esoteric1 · 7th March 2008, 17:19

Quote:

Supporting the U.S. act is the need of some Muslim countries and the compulsion of others. However, they should think as to what will remain of their religious and moral position if they support the attack of the Christians and the Jews on a Muslim country like Afghanistan. The orders of Islamic Shariah [jurisprudence] for such individuals, organizations and countries are clear and all the scholars of the Muslim brotherhood are unanimous on them. We will do the same, which is being ordered by the Ameer-ul-Momeneen [the commander of the faithful Afghans] Muhammad Omar and the Islamic scholars. The hearts of the people of Muslim countries are beating with the call of jehad. We are grateful to them.

Daily UMMAT: The losses caused in the attacks in New York and Washington have proved that giving an economic blow to the U.S.is not too difficult. U.S. experts admit that a few more such attacks can bring down the American economy. Why is Al-Qaida not targeting their economic pillars?

USAMA BIN LADEN: I have already said that we are not hostile to the United States. We are against the [U.S. Government] system, which makes other nations slaves of the United States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic freedom. This system is totally in control of the American-Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid by them. So, the punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the U.S. is not uttering a single word.

Daily UMMAT: Why is harm not caused to the enemies of Islam through other means, apart from the armed struggle? For instance, urging the Muslims to boycott Western products, banks, shipping lines and TV channels.

USAMA BIN LADEN: The first thing is that Western products could only be boycotted when the Muslim fraternity is fully awakened and organized. Secondly, the Muslim companies should become self-sufficient in producing goods equal to the products of Western companies. Economic boycott of the West is not possible unless economic self-sufficiency is attained and substitute products are brought out. You see that wealth is scattered all across the Muslim World but not a single TV channel has been acquired which can preach Islamic injunctions according to modern requirements and attain an international influence. Muslim traders and philanthropists should make it a point that if the weapon of public opinion is to be used, it is to be kept in the hand. Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done.

Daily UMMAT: The entire propaganda about your struggle has so far been made by the Western media. But no information is being received from your sources about the network of Al-Qaida and its jehadi successes. Would you comment?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In fact, the Western media is left with nothing else. It has no other theme to survive for a long time. Then we have many other things to do. The struggle for jehad and the successes are for the sake of Allah and not to annoy His bondsmen. Our silence is our real propaganda. Rejections, explanations, or corrigendum only waste your time and through them, the enemy wants you to engage in things which are not of use to you. These things are pulling you away from your cause. The Western media is unleashing such a baseless propaganda, which makes us surprise but it reflects on what is in their hearts and gradually they themselves become captive of this propaganda. They become afraid of it and begin to cause harm to themselves. Terror is the most dreaded weapon in modern age and the Western media is mercilessly using it against its own people. It can add fear and helplessness in the psyche of the people of Europe and the United States. It means that what the enemies of the United States cannot do, its media is doing that. You can understand as to what will be the performance of the nation in a war, which suffers from fear and helplessness.

Daily UMMAT: What will be the impact of the freeze of Al-Qaida accounts by the U.S.?

USAMA BIN LADEN: God opens up ways for those who work for Him. Freezing of accounts will not make any difference for Al-Qaida or other jehad groups. With the grace of Allah, Al-Qaida has more than three alternative financial systems, which are all separate and totally independent from each other. This system is operating under the patronage of those who love jehad. What to say of the United States, even the combined world cannot budge these people from their path. These people are not in hundreds but in thousands and millions. Al-Qaida comprises of such modern educated youths who are aware of the cracks inside the Western financial system as they are aware of the lines in their hands. These are the very flaws of the Western fiscal system, which are becoming a noose for it and this system could not recuperate in spite of the passage of so many days.

Daily UMMAT: Are there other safe areas other than Afghanistan, where you can continue jehad?

USAMA BIN LADEN: There are areas in all parts of the world where strong jehadi forces are present, from Indonesia to Algeria, from Kabul to Chechnya, from Bosnia to Sudan, and from Burma to Kashmir. Then it is not the problem of my person. I am a helpless fellowman of God, constantly in the fear of my accountability before God. It is not the question of Usama but of Islam and, in Islam too, of jehad. Thanks to God, those waging a jehad can walk today with their heads raised. Jehad was still present when there was no Usama and it will remain as such even when Usama is no longer there. Allah opens up ways and creates loves in the hearts of people for those who walk on the path of Allah with their lives, property and children. Believe it, through jehad, a man gets everything he desires. And the biggest desire of a Muslim is the life after death. Martyrdom is the shortest way of attaining an eternal life.

Daily UMMAT: What do you say about the Pakistan Government policy on Afghanistan attack?

USAMA BIN LADEN: We are thankful to the Momin and valiant people of Pakistan who erected a blockade in front of the evil forces and stood in the first file of battle. Pakistan is a great hope for the Islamic brotherhood. Its people are awakened, organized and rich in the spirit of faith. They backed Afghanistan in its war against the Soviet Union and extended every help to the mojahedeen (freedom fighters) and the Afghan people. Then these are very Pakistanis who are standing shoulder by shoulder with the Taleban. If such people emerge in just two countries, the domination of the West will diminish in a matter of days. Our hearts beat with Pakistan and, God forbid, if a difficult time comes we will protect it with our blood. Pakistan is sacred for us like a place of worship. We are the people of jehad and fighting for the defense of Pakistan is the best of all jehads to us. It does not matter for us as to who reforms Pakistan. The important thing is that the spirit of jehad is alive and stronger in the hearts of the Pakistani people.
- Source: Ummat, Urdu-language daily newspaper based in Karachi, Pakistan - Friday, 28 September 2001 - pages 1, 7. - Source: BBC Monitoring Service. - Source: http://www.khilafah.com http://www.khilafah.com/1421/category.php?DocumentID=2392&TagID=2

To me, Osama's words speak more truth than the words of Bush Jr. and the neo-cons(PNAC and other assorted groups) who brought us the fairy tale of who, how, and why the 9/11 event occured, and then later the reasons why it was so critical to initiate an illegal, immoral act of aggression against the country of Iraq.

zazel · 8th March 2008, 01:07

911 was a federal jobs program.

robitusson · 8th March 2008, 02:12

Robert Fisk has met families of the 9-11 bombers and interviewed Bin Laden (before 9-11) yet he follows the "official theory". Is he in on the c.t. too?

He's acutely critical of the US, Israel and Arab terrorism of civilians, yet decides to be part of the cover up!?! Or else, despite his years and years of meticulously following Middle East politics and culture, he's too ill-informed to know what's really going on. A man ridiculously knowledgable about the Middle East either doesn't know what really happened or has managed to pretend to be highly critical of US policy, all the while being complicit in a massive cover-up.

esoteric1 · 8th March 2008, 05:13

^Is Robert Fisk a completely independent journalist, or is he beholden to some powerful interests to get his work into the public eye? Just asking.

robitusson · 8th March 2008, 05:31

Why is that question relevant? Have you read what he says about the American press? It's not exactly flattering reading.

And who are these shadowy powerful interests? Either he interviewed the bombers' families or he didn't. Either he inetrviewed Bin Laden and reported what he said or he didn't. His journalism is so detailed, so comprehensive, that if facts and issues were being made up or left out, the massive holes or blatant cover-ups would be easily spotted.

So did he supposedly make up the interviews with the bombers' families just to go along with the big cover up? Was he all the while writing in-depth, factual coverage and commentary on all the other aspects of Middle East politics, then covering up the real c.t. story? Is this what we have to believe?

I'm just wondering where does the c.t. end. It seems that in order to follow the c.t. then everything else apart from it is a lie too. If it is true, then nothing can be accepted. It's either or. No in-between. Just one or the other.

The amateur internet reporting that strung together a c.t. story which is totally out of synch with all preceeding events is relying on the faith of its adherents to carry it on. The story has a clearly obvious agenda and requires beliefs in a totally paranoid world view as a basis. It's also waaaay too simplistic.

Frankly the c.t was mildly amusing for a while but it's dragging on now. The hardcore adherents will stick to it forever of course, but eventually it'll just assume it's place in the long line of all the other c.t.s out there that the culture has brought up until the next one comes along.

esoteric1 · 8th March 2008, 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by robitusson

Why is that relevant?

come on robi, you really don't get why it would be relevant?

I know that the original purveyors of the 'official explanation' are proven liars and dissemblers.

yes I've read some of Fisk's writing. My question to you, is it possible that reporting partial truths is another way of lying? Can you also lie by acts of omission?

Is the British press really that much more superior to the American press any more? Britain is/was part of aftermath of 9/11 too, you don't think there was pressure for the media to 'go along to get along' there as well?

Fisk works for the Independent right?

But just for the record it does seem that Fisk has some doubts about the 9/11 official story himself:

Quote:

In August 2007 Fisk publicly expressed, for the first time, doubts about the historical record of the September 11 attacks. In an article for The Independent, he raised such concerns as missing aircraft parts, the melting point of steel, the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, and other familiar criticisms that have circulated within the 9/11 Truth Movement, although he said that many other criticisms were "crazed".[13]

from: Robert Fisk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boonmee · 8th March 2008, 07:41

^ It'd be interesting to track down exactly what Fisk did say...

keeshou · 8th March 2008, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric1