robitusson

The c.t.-ists loooove this one. "Steel does not melt at this temperature, therefore Dick Cheney did it".

It's a chain of events.

Planes hit -> fire burns -> steel may or may not have melted -> steel does weaken however (steel does not need to melt for it to be too weak to support the structure) -> building collapses when steel is either too weak to support the structure or melted -> steel may or may not have melted yet building collapses (not at freefall speed incidentally.)

Sorry, no big, dark evil secret behind it all that only the enlightened few can comprehend.

Temperature of melting steel: irrelevant - unless you have an agenda and a conspiracy to believe in.

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esoteric1

so those passenger jets were using rocket fuel on 9/11??

I don't even have to get into all the intricacies of steel's melting versus weakening temperature points to doubt the official story.

Once again my point that the official explanation was determined and propagated while the smoke was still rising from the debris(and it was still a rescue operation, before any type of real investigation was undertaken) is ignored.

Not to mention that much of the evidence was hurriedly scooped up and shipped off, once again before any real investigation could be undertaken.
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the cat will mew and the dog will have his day." ~ Hamlet

robitusson

Don't know what this means. Personally I don't find dualistic, black & white, only one or the other, type of thinking very useful.

If you mean it was bloody obvious what was happening from the moment the planes hit, then yes it was.

Anyway leave it to The Onion to put it succinctly.

9/11 Conspiracy Theories 'Ridiculous,' Al Qaeda Says | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


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Larkinny

I certainly haven't done that. There are some stupid sites, in keeping with the "poisoning the well" practice I mentioned earlier, but I can't see how you can claim all CTers lie.

Who does that, beside those sites mentioned above?

Actually, as has been pointed out already, the 19 Saudis with boxcutters is a conspiracy theory. It's a conspiracy, by definition; and it's a theory - the alleged perpetrators have not been tried (even in absentia) and even the FBI admits they have no hard evidence implicating OBL.

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to ask!

You see folks, this is what I mean about this guy

That's what we're saying. What was it?

If you'd bothered to read what I gave you, you would've seen this:


In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame. A jet burner generally involves mixing the fuel and the oxidant in nearly stoichiometric proportions and igniting the mixture in a constant-volume chamber. Since the combustion products cannot expand in the constant-volume chamber, they exit the chamber as a very high velocity, fully combusted, jet. This is what occurs in a jet engine, and this is the flame type that generates the most intense heat.

In a pre-mixed flame, the same nearly stoichiometric mixture is ignited as it exits a nozzle, under constant pressure conditions. It does not attain the flame velocities of a jet burner. An oxyacetylene torch or a Bunsen burner is a pre-mixed flame.

In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range. A fireplace flame is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.

Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types.

If the fuel and the oxidant start at ambient temperature, a maximum flame temperature can be defined. For carbon burning in pure oxygen, the maximum is 3,200°C; for hydrogen it is 2,750°C. Thus, for virtually any hydrocarbons, the maximum flame temperature, starting at ambient temperature and using pure oxygen, is approximately 3,000°C.

This maximum flame temperature is reduced by two-thirds if air is used rather than pure oxygen. The reason is that every molecule of oxygen releases the heat of formation of a molecule of carbon monoxide and a molecule of water. If pure oxygen is used, this heat only needs to heat two molecules (carbon monoxide and water), while with air, these two molecules must be heated plus four molecules of nitrogen. Thus, burning hydrocarbons in air produces only one-third the temperature increase as burning in pure oxygen because three times as many molecules must be heated when air is used. The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1,000°C—hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1,500°C.

But it is very difficult to reach this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame. There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio. Typically, diffuse flames are fuel rich, meaning that the excess fuel molecules, which are unburned, must also be heated. It is known that most diffuse fires are fuel rich because blowing on a campfire or using a blacksmith’s bellows increases the rate of combustion by adding more oxygen. This fuel-rich diffuse flame can drop the temperature by up to a factor of two again. This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500°C to 650°C range. It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best.


And that is precisely what NIST found:

“None of the recovered steel samples showed evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600ºC for as long as 15 min.” (NCSTAR 1, 180)

Is that clear now?

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I've never seen a president - I don't care who he is - stand up to them (the Israelis). It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want ... If the American people understood what grip those people have on our government, they would rise up in arms.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, Former Chief of Naval Operations, and Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in Andrew Hurley's book, One Nation Under Israel

keeshou

The quote was about Jet Engines

I didn't use the entire quote in Post #106, because I'd used it before in Post #98.

You know they refer to jet engines as rockets occasionally. Just like they refer to rifles as guns.

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"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans. With a capital "A", huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts."
PFC J. Winger



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Robin Friday

You know what it is for me that makes the whole official version of events implausible and
suspicious? The fact that it actually even happened at all.

keeshou

Originally Posted by keeshou
You measured the temperature?


But you stated:

So, what's wrong with asking you to back up that claim?

How do you know the temperature wasn't unusual, unless you measured it. Because I'm sure no one else did.

Except fire places don't use Jet fuel
Jets don't use pure oxygen to burn fuel, can you imagine how impractical that would be?

So you might want to tell Pratt & Whitney and the US Airforce that jet fuel and air can't reach temperatures over 1000 degrees


1000 degrees Celsius = 1832 degrees Fahrenheit



3400 degrees Fahrenheit = 1871.11111 degrees Celsius



So, Im not too sure about your FACTS.

__________________
"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans. With a capital "A", huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts."
PFC J. Winger



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esoteric1

obvious to who? those propagating the official story in order to promote their agenda??

Quote:

It appears therefore that the official concept of a free fall collapse of the upper portion through the initiation story, due to heat effects from fire, is a fantasy. If the temperature did become high enough for collapse to occur it could not have happened in the observed manner. (9) In particular it could not have been sudden and thus could not have produced the velocity, and hence the momentum and kinetic energy, upon which the official story depends for the second stage of collapse. In contrast, all observations are in accord with the use of explosives in a timed sequence.

Quote:

9. “The test results show that carbon steel begins to lose strength at temperatures above 300°C and reduces in strength at a steady rate up to 800°C. The well defined yield plateau at 20°C is replaced by a gradual increase of strength with increasing strain (or strain-hardening) at high temperatures.” Structural Material Behavior in Fire: Steel: Hot Rolled Carbon Steel Mechanical Properties

__________________
"Let Hercules himself do what he may;
the cat will mew and the dog will have his day." ~ Hamlet

Larkinny

I quoted Eagar and Musso, who, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if you missed this, support the official story.

More idiocy. Of course no one measured it. It would take the god of fire to do such a thing. What makes you ask this, or are you just trolling?

So how do we know the temperature wasn't unusual? Ever heard of forensic science?

Nope. There's quite a difference between the controlled combustion of a jet engine and the uncontrolled jet fuel burning at the WTC, most of which burned up in less than 10 minutes, according to Dr. Shyam Sunder, NIST Lead Investigator.

You better do some more thinking then.

__________________

I've never seen a president - I don't care who he is - stand up to them (the Israelis). It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want ... If the American people understood what grip those people have on our government, they would rise up in arms.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, Former Chief of Naval Operations, and Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in Andrew Hurley's book, One Nation Under Israel

longway

i remember reading that the structural integrity of the steel was compromised due to the temperature; the loss of strength occurs at much lower temperatures than that required for melting the steel.

keeshou

The same forensic science, which turned up Molten Steel? You can't have it both ways Larkinkny.

The amount of evidence left after the WTC collapsed certainly wouldn't have shown hot spots or even much of scorching, so I know you are grasping at straws now.

If you are using forensic science to determin the temperature of this fire and you find evidence of molten steel, then a good scientist would conclude that the temperature wasn''t usual.

So this was the reason I asked you about the actual measurement of the temperature. If there was some evidence (other than forensic science) to indicate that the temperature had been normal, you might call my line of questioning idiocy. Instead you are using the term to cover up your own shortcomings.

Just like Kerux, I can always tell when you fanatics are over your head, it's when you start to pull out the personal insults.

You were the one who stated that Jet fuel mixed with regular air (vs. straight oxygen) couldn't burn at a temperature higher

I was simply proving that that statement was not a fact. You used the above "FACTS" to establish that Jet Fuel mixed with Air could not reach a temperature over 1000 degrees C, which is in FACT incorrect.

If it is possible (no matter how unlikely) you can't rule it out.

But of course you will, because you want to believe that crews of invisible men, worked tirelessly and soundlessly in buildings where thousands of people worked and yet no one reported the holes, wiring, unusual workers nor the sound that the drilling would have made. Not only that but after a fire had raged within this building, none of the explosives went off prematurely, none of the wiring burned away and the sounds of the explosives were soundless as well.

This makes complete sense to you?

__________________
"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans. With a capital "A", huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts."
PFC J. Winger



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