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About LinkBacksSad but true...largely ignored fact as well...Originally Posted by Capricious
Wha?
Sad but true...largely ignored fact as well...
Wha?
"Goddamn it Lord, bless oh ye this bacon..."
George Liquor American
you must buy that line from the neo-cons and Dubya about the "evil doers". Sure, the Palestinians use suicide bombers, low tech rocket and a lot of intifada rock throwing, but what makes you think Hamas actually wishes for Palestinians to be killed in Gaza? be better if Hamas had hi-tech weapons? be better if Hamas had army, navy and air force bases for Israel to attack rather than a piece of land, Gaza, that is more like one big slum/jail cell with refugee camps filled with those whose families were kicked out of their homes by Israel in 1947 when the Jewish Irgun were acting like terrorists?
Panny, Fatah/PLO on the west bank is a secular organization which has fought many intifadas against the Israelis to free the west bank from Israeli occupation, nothing to do with Islam.
Are you against them, too? as mentioned, there is no military solution to the conflict. Israel is fighting for peace, Palestinians are fighting for land, so only a "land for peace" agreement will solve it.
one more question, Panny, never heard your answer to this:
Losing the PR war and the Diaspora
Wars can be won on the battlefield while being lost in the realm of public opinion. In Vietnam, the United States army was victorious in every combat operation but the overall war was lost when the American public became convinced that the cost of fighting far outweighed any benefit. In the Middle East today, we see the same dichotomy between battlefield success and public relations failure.
Israel, one of the world's most militarized nations with every weapon at its disposal up to the nuclear bomb, is having no problem crushing Hamas, a raggedy half-staved guerrilla force whose homemade missiles are usually as dangerous as firecrackers.
Yet for all its tactical skills in turning Gaza into a charnel house, Israel is facing a serious strategic loss on the battlefield of public perception. As it did in earlier wars where Israel killed large numbers of civilians, global public opinion is cooling toward the Jewish state, which runs the risk of becoming an international pariah.
This shift in public opinion is most striking when we look at young Jews in North America, who are much more critical of Israel than their parents and grandparents.
In Toronto, a group of Jewish women briefly occupied the Israeli consulate in protest against the war. In Los Angeles, young Jews wearing keffiyehs marched outside the Israeli consulate carrying signs reading "Difference Between Warsaw Ghetto&Gaza? 70 Years."
No TV personality has a better sense of the pulse of the young than Jon Stewart, himself Jewish and hitherto a staunch supporter of Israel. On the Daily Show when commenting on Gaza, Stewart mocked politicians like New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg for criticizing the Palestinians while failing to acknowledge their legitimate grievances.
Events like the war in Gaza are likely to intensify the post-Zionism of young Jews. In the public debate in America, it is striking that the strongest supporters of Israel tend to be writers like Alan Dershowitz (age 70), Marty Peretz (also 70) and William Kristol (a sprightly 56). As against this Geritol brigade, a group of young Jewish writers, many of them working for progressive think-tanks that are helping to shape the Obama administration, have been admirably sharp-witted in attacking the Gaza offensive as a moral and strategic failure.
It's worth listening to some of these young Jewish writers.
Here is Ezra Klein, age 24: "There is nothing proportionate in this response. No way to fit it into a larger strategy that leads towards eventual peace.
Spencer Ackerman, age 28: "The Jewish writers who consider Palestinian life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli life will start braying about anti-Semitism, because when Palestinian bodies are charred in the streets, the real victim is a sensitive Jew's sense of collective guilt."
Matthew Yglesias, age 28: "The Israeli government, seemingly dissatisfied with the results of their earlier effort to just make life as miserable as possible for residents of the Gaza strip[,] went and killed a couple of hundred people in retaliatory airstrikes."
Dana Goldstein, age 24: "Asking young Jews to fight and die in a ground war, one whose perpetration inflames anti-Semitic sentiments, is not the best way to make Israel, or the world at large, safe for the Jewish people."
Klein, Ackerman, Yglesias and Goldstein are among the most widely read political writers on the Internet. Their blogs have millions of readers. They've worked for think-tanks and magazines that have played a major role in creating the Obama presidency. For Israel to lose the support of a rising generation of Jewish intellectuals and policymakers is a grave problem. (This trend of young Jews becoming alienated from Israel has been extensively documented by Philip Weiss on his blog Mondoweiss.)
Why are young Jews so harsh in their criticism of Israel? The only honest answer is Israel's terrible human rights record. The wanton slaughter in Gaza is merely the latest in a long litany of Israeli atrocities, all of which help the Jewish state win some short-term victories while making long-term peace impossible.Reuters AlertNet - U.S. seeks ship to move arms to Israel
LONDON, Jan 9 (Reuters) - The U.S. is seeking to hire a merchant ship to deliver hundreds of tonnes of arms to Israel from Greece later this month, tender documents seen by Reuters show.
The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command (MSC) said the ship was to carry 325 standard 20-foot containers of what is listed as "ammunition" on two separate journeys from the Greek port of Astakos to the Israeli port of Ashdod in mid-to-late January.
In September, the U.S. Congress aproved the sale of 1,000 bunker-buster missiles to Israel. The GPS-guided GBU-39 is said to be one of the most accurate bombs in the world.
The Jerusalem Post, citing defence officials, reported last week that a first shipment of the missiles had arrived in early December and they were used in pentetrating Hamas's underground rocket launcher sites.
The tender for the vessel follows the hiring of a commercial ship to carry a much larger consignment of ordnance in December from the United States to Israel ahead of air strikes in the Gaza Strip.
A German shipping firm which won that tender confirmed the order when contacted by Reuters but declined to comment further.
Last edited by Farangrakthai; 10th January 2009 at 08:48. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Stupid? You may just have three fingers pointing back, at you there, little boy.
Let's just refresh our memories about what Obama has proposed to do as a new President. Is he stupid too?
I don't know about being super-human, but give him a chance (till he starts his job), to see if he will do anything. As you said, this war has been going for so long. It won't happen overnight. Obama's words in his speech last June.
Obama's Mideast peace platform is coming into focus - Haaretz - Israel NewsIn a speech before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee this past June, Obama pledged to immediately act towards achieving Israeli-Arab peace if elected. He stressed a number of points: safeguarding Israel's security, which includes following through on an American commitment of military aid to the tune of $30 billion over the next decade; a "contiguous and cohesive" Palestinian state; defensible, secure, and recognized borders; and preserving Israel's "Jewish identity" (which hints at his ruling out a return of refugees); and Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel.
Obama later qualified his statements on Jerusalem. He also called on Israel to ease the day-to-day lives of the Palestinians, allow for greater freedom of movement in the territories, and halt settlement construction. Obama noted that he opposed Hamas participation in the Palestinian elections in 2006 but he did not reveal his position on the group's participation in future elections
Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need | Foreign PolicyIsraeli-Palestinian Conflict: Obama and Biden will make progress on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a key diplomatic priority. They will make a sustained push – working with Israelis and Palestinians – to achieve the goal of two states, a Jewish state in Israel and a Palestinian state, living side by side in peace and security.
Thank you
Good to see that dear old''Uncle Sam'' (Samuel being a good Jewish name) is so intent on furthering peace in the Middle East by shipping more weaponry to Israel !!
Remember Vietnam.
Dying is a very dull, dreary affair. And my advice to you is to have nothing whatever to do with it.
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Are you forgetting about the 6500 rockets that Hamas has fired from Gaza since Israel pulled out in 2005 and the 3200 rockets that they fired last year? I wonder how America would react if Mexico started to fire hundred of rockets into America in hopes of reclaiming Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California in hopes of forming a new nation.Israel fired the first shots to break the 6 month cease fire with Hamas.
Being "recognized" and changing the genocidal tendencies that most Muslims have against Jews are two different things.
Have you ever heard Mr Erakat speak in Arabic about Israel?
You are comparing apples and oranges.
IMO, as soon as you take sides or believe one or the other then the solution will be a mess. Watching CNN won't help. Go outside the US media to see both sides.
As far as I see, they are BOTH being assholes. The only solution I see is diplomacy, and the USA fucked that up when it decided to pick sides and support Israel. Watching CNN of course you would think Israel is the victim.
Last edited by Mr. Computer; 10th January 2009 at 10:00.
I wonder how America (the Palestinians) would react if Mexico (Israel) started to fire hundred of rockets (tanks, bulldozers, aircraft bombs, machine guns) into America (the Palestinian Land outside Israel's pre-1967 borders) in hopes of reclaiming Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California (building apartheid-like Jew only settlements in the west bank for 300,000 Jews) in hopes of forming a new nation (greater Israel as right wing Zionists believe is promised to them by God in the old testament)
I think that the Saudi prince has addressed that issue:
Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Peace Initiative was endorsed unilaterally by all 22 members of the Arab League. Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia made a speech to the Arab League on the same day in which he said that:
“In spite of all that has happened and what still may happen, the primary issue in the heart and mind of every person in our Arab Islamic nation is the restoration of legitimate rights in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. [...] We believe in taking up arms in self-defence and to deter aggression. But we also believe in peace when it is based on justice and equity, and when it brings an end to conflict. Only within the context of true peace can normal relations flourish between the people of the region and allow the region to pursue development rather than war. In light of the above, and with your backing and that of the Almighty, I propose that the Arab summit put forward a clear and unanimous initiative addressed to the United Nations security council based on two basic issues: normal relations and security for Israel in exchange for full withdrawal from all occupied Arab territories, recognition of an independent Palestinian state with al-Quds al-Sharif as its capital, and the return of refugees.[2]
The initiative was fully endorsed by the Arab League at the Riyadh Summit in 2007 by all members as well as by the Muslim World Summit which gave it complete credibility for if it is undertaken the normalization with Israel will be done by the entire Muslim and Arab Worlds.nope, have a link from a mainstream media source? Israeli haaretz newspaper would do.
I'm American and the funny thing is I don't see my fellow Americans giving their land back to the Indians after we killed them off and put them on reservations. What if we owned land just off one of our Indian reservations and the Indians decided they wanted to build a house there without paying for the land. I'd think we would be a little pissed about it and resort to violence if we had to resolve or bring attention to the matter.
At the same time we're very keen on lending a hand to Israel and look the other way while they steal back their promised land. In the immortal words of Sir Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along? I mean can't we get along?"
"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis."Tyler Durden
Stop Human Trafficking. Visit Somaly Mam Foundation online.
.What you don't know about Gaza - International Herald Tribune
Nearly everything you've been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel's attack on the Gaza Strip.
THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.
THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005.
Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza's air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will.
As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.
THE BLOCKADE Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006.
Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.
The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment - with the tacit support of the United States - of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.
THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures).
The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.
WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers.
Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.
This war on the people of Gaza isn't really about rockets. Nor is it about "restoring Israel's deterrence," as the Israeli press might have you believe.
Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002:
"The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people."
Originally Posted by THX 1133
CNN? What's that? Asia Times, Al Jezeera, WorldMEETS.US, BBC, Democracynow, International Herald Tribune, now these are news sites.
By Crew; Any idea who edits the IHT?
No, but IHT is the international version of The New York Times. Don't hold that against them.
.The Raw Story | Ron Paul: Gaza crisis is blowback for past US interventions
Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) spoke on Friday in opposition to a non-binding House resolution (pdf) expressing "strong support for Israel" in its invasion of Gaza and decrying Hamas as a terrorist organization that has put "hundreds of thousands of Israelis in danger."
"I rise in opposition to this resolution, not because I am taking sides and picking who the bad guys are and who the good guys are." Paul stated. "I'm looking at this more from the angle of being a United States citizen, an American, and I think resolutions like this really do us great harm."
"The weapons being used to kill so many Palestinians are American weapons, and American funds, essentially, are being used for this," continued Paul. "There's a political liability, which I think is something that we fail to look at, because too often there's so much blowback from our intervention in areas that we shouldn't be involved in."
Paul pointed out that if Hamas now has too much power, it is the fault of past actions by Israel and the United States. "We first, indirectly and directly through Israel, help establish Hamas," he noted, "then we have an election [in Gaza], then Hamas becomes dominant -- so we have to kill them. It just doesn't make sense."
"There's a lot of reasons why we should oppose this resolution," Paul concluded emphatically. "It is not in the interests of the United States. It's not in the interests of Israel, either."
Paul's statement was consistent with his past positions. Last March, he was the sole member of Congress to vote against a one-sided condemnation of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.
Paul stated on that occasion, "I believe it is appalling that Palestinians are firing rockets that harm innocent Israelis, just as I believe it is appalling that Israel fires missiles into Palestinian areas where children and other non-combatants are killed and injured. Unfortunately, legislation such as this is more likely to perpetuate violence in the Middle East than contribute to its abatement. ... I strongly believe that we must cease making proclamations involving conflicts that have nothing to do with the United States. We incur the wrath of those who feel slighted while doing very little to slow or stop the violence."
Still demonstrating your mastery of search engines, frt?
Still demonstrating your mastery of impertinence and impudence, CyrilleStill demonstrating your mastery of search engines, frt?
typical Cyrille, not capable of adding anything to a debate, only throwing around insults.
Capturing that twat Cyrille to a tee...Still demonstrating your mastery of impertinence and impudence, Cyrille
typical Cyrille, not capable of adding anything to a debate, only throw around insults.
"Goddamn it Lord, bless oh ye this bacon..."
George Liquor American
Is the comparison not valid then? What would America do if Mexico started to launch thousands of rockets at densely populated cities?
I must take your word about CNN because I do not watch it. Having said that though, I strongly disagree with your assessment that diplomacy was not used. Remember it was Hamas who did not want to renew the ceasefire. *link deleted* Israel did everything in its power to negotiate but they were turned down.
The Israel public wants action. They are tired of the 3200 rockets that has rained into southern Israel with no response from the IDF. The PM election will take place in Feb. and the only way that either Barak or Livini will have a chance against Bibby is if they act tough. Gaza will turn into a parking lot if Bibby is elected and everyone knows it. Perhaps BHO does not want to undermine the "moderates" in their quest to win the PM position and perhaps that is the reason why he has not "offically" spoken out concerning the matter.
There are four points I would like to make:
1. Hamas could stop Israel's attacks easily: halt all rocket fire and go underground. Israel would have no choice but to withdraw, even without a UN brokered cease-fire. To keep going would seem like war-mongering. That Hamas doesn't do this tells me that they want to keep fighting. They are not yet demoralized.
2. I don't think anyone believes Israel is acting crazy. I think the Arab world sees that Israel is fighting smart. It has countered the humanitarian crisis argument by sending in truckloads of aid; it has parried the civilians-are-being-targeted claim by really aiming carefully, by documenting every action with video, and by releasing pictures, maps and official reactions promptly.
3. I don't think the 2006 Hezbollah War makes a good analogy with the current Hamas War. Hezbollah was a rebel political party in Lebanon. Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. Big difference, morally speaking. When NGOs say Israel is perpetrating a massacre on the poor Gazans, it doesn't quite stick -- because Hamas is their democratically elected leadership.
4. When Hamas decides it wants to stop fighting, the war will end.
[quote=Farangrakthai;1132389]I wonder how America (the Palestinians) would react if Mexico (Israel) started to fire hundred of rockets (tanks, bulldozers, aircraft bombs, machine guns) into America (the Palestinian Land outside Israel's pre-1967 borders) in hopes of reclaiming Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California (building apartheid-like Jew only settlements in the west bank for 300,000 Jews) in hopes of forming a new nation (greater Israel as right wing Zionists believe is promised to them by God in the old testament)
What is a "Zionist" Farang?
There was no "pre 67 borders" and you know it.
How gullible are you?
[quote=Farangrakthai;1132389
nope, have a link from a mainstream media source? Israeli haaretz newspaper would do.[/quote]
Can you read Arabic or Hebrew? The best place that I can think of, in English, is the Palestinian Media Watch.
Homepage:
*link deleted*
PA leadership:
*link deleted*
"For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."
Source:
*link deleted*
Video:
*link deleted*
God forbid! They would put Hitler to shame. Is that your true intention and desire for Jews?
Where has the hundreds of millions of dollars that the world has poured into Gaza went to? Perhaps Hamas used it to buy more suicide vests.
My post count is not high enough to post URLs.
Perhaps Congressman Paul would like to pass a resolution against both the Chinese and Russians for supplying weapons to Hamas for the sole purpose of killing Jews.
Last edited by Golani; 10th January 2009 at 15:36. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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