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About LinkBacksBoth achievable in time, but little will for either and massive powerful support against both. St. Barack included.Originally Posted by barfomcgee
Both achievable in time, but little will for either and massive powerful support against both. St. Barack included.
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Wow, you've watched a lot more Fox News than I had realized. You know, your constant sarcasm and condescension might be appropriate if you weren't so wrong on so many crucial issues.
Do you honestly believe that America's policy before 9/11 was "pretty much to 'leave them alone'"? The US has been meddling in the Middle East for decades - surely you know this.
Here's but one crucial example, one that the entire Muslim world was well aware of:
During the Persian Gulf War, the United States systematically destroyed Iraq's water sanitization system. They researched it beforehand and knew exactly what would happen as a consequence. They also knew it was against the Geneva Conventions - yet they did it anyway. They then enforced sanctions that prevented bottled water and medicine from entering the country. In 2001, the United Nations concluded that more than 500,000 children under the age of 5 had died as a direct result of America's illegal actions and immoral sanctions. Does that sound like "leaving them alone"? You can bet that Osama and his minions were well aware of this.
The US has never left anyone alone if they have something we want. You are incredibly foolish and naive if you actually believe the US government is acting in your - or any other ordinary citizens' - interests.
Anyway, please answer this question. If there are so many people intent on destroying the West and creating a new Islamic empire, why haven't we been attacked since 9/11? Seriously, it's pretty easy to do. Saying that troops and contractors in Iraq have given them alternative targets just doesn't cut it.
resistance was futile? well, over time people yearn to be free and not ruled by outsiders. the us knows this and hopefully, the us gets out troops out of iraq and afghanistan in the next couple years. like you mentioned different groups have different agendas. palestinians fight for their own freedom from occupation. hezbollah fought to push israel out of lebanon. hezbollah didn't even exist as a military organization till israel invaded lebanon. the mujahadeen, supported by the CIA to fight the soviets in afghanistan became anti-american and some became the taliban. terrorist groups have sprouted in iraq to fight the yank/brit invasion/occupation.
bin laden wasn't responsible for 911 according to the bush administration, though even bin laden said his reasons for fighting were like barf mentioned, us troops in saudi, us interference overall in the middle east and palestine. bin laden said something like "leave us alone and we'll leave you alone"
so maybe al-queda has your type of thinking that they want the west to fear its response and to remove all troops from the middle east.
You are actually right about this, though. I mentioned it because it was one of Osama's original reasons for 9/11. However, now that the US has troops in Afghanistan and Iraq it is no longer necessary to station them in Saudi. So, as FRT noted the goal should be to bring all troops from the entire region, not just one country.
It would be one thing if the Taliban simply wanted a country of their own where officials would be free to oppress those they don't like...that happens nearly everywhere and is tolerated by the world community (Burma and Sudan spring to mind)...
If, however, they would use the levers of state to further an Al-Qa'eda agenda in other countries (i.e. "terrorism"), they would have to be invaded in precisely the same (or similar) fashion that has already occurred to be stopped.
What is a tad unusual is that Sodum and Al-Qa'eda agree that the current Saudi/Gulf leadership should be replaced...Sodum might prefer the next king to be an Exxon executive, while OBL might assume the task himself...
The US undoubtedly has made foolish decisions in the Middle East, as have British, Europeans, and Muslims. Suggest you review ''Geopolitics'' and history to gain a better grasp of what happens when there's a vacuum in any area where nations have competing strategic and vital interests.quote=barfomcgee;1224048]
Do you honestly believe that America's policy before 9/11 was "pretty much to 'leave them alone'"? The US has been meddling in the Middle East for decades - surely you know this.
The sanctions were approved by the United Nations. All Sadaam needed to do was to comply with the UN resolutions. Instead he violated them consistently until his overthrow in 2003. Sadaam was a brutal dictator, he easily could have provided for his people within the limits of the sanctions and he chose not to. The oil for food program was used to line the pockets of Sadaam, its UN administrators, private companies, fund Al-Qaeda and compensate suicide bombers.Here's but one crucial example, one that the entire Muslim world was well aware of:
During the Persian Gulf War, the United States systematically destroyed Iraq's water sanitization system. They researched it beforehand and knew exactly what would happen as a consequence. They also knew it was against the Geneva Conventions - yet they did it anyway. They then enforced sanctions that prevented bottled water and medicine from entering the country. In 2001, the United Nations concluded that more than 500,000 children under the age of 5 had died as a direct result of America's illegal actions and immoral sanctions. Does that sound like "leaving them alone"? You can bet that Osama and his minions were well aware of this.
Aside from the left-wing conspiracy screeching websites, do you have any objective source (UN Report, etc) to substantiate your claim?
You say, ' If there are so many people intent on destroying the West and creating a new Islamic empire,'' as if I made up the terrorist attacks that have occurred all over the globe by Islamist terrorist groups.Anyway, please answer this question. If there are so many people intent on destroying the West and creating a new Islamic empire, why haven't we been attacked since 9/11? Seriously, it's pretty easy to do. Saying that troops and contractors in Iraq have given them alternative targets just doesn't cut it.
Its been happening almost weekly around the globe. Put down that x-box and read.
Amazing how all the whining, sniveling and shit slinging is directed at the US or ''West'', and not a peep about the the murder and mayhem against civilians by Islamists that happen almost weekly. Exactly no accountability attributed to them by anyone so far.
I can't help but feel some posters might still be living in Mom's basement, and/or feel the need to justify being afraid to enlist in the military-- or to compensate for some other perceived inadequacy, by developing this shallow defensive response and whinging non-stop about the sins of America, and at no time, holding mass murderers of civilians accountable, or showing any empathy at all for victims of Islamist terror attacks. Family reunions must be hell, trying to stay in the background and pretend to be mesmerized by elementary school cousins playing hop-scotch.
Last edited by sodum; 4th July 2009 at 12:18.
sodum, you fought for the us military and then worked for haliburton or whoever in the military industrial complex providing security up till a few years ago, right?
so, you have to tell yourself that "we" are the good guys and the muslim "terrorists" are the evil doers as dubya calls them, right? that helps you keep your sanity since you probably had to shoot bullets to kill people over there or at least be prepared to do so.
the brits and yanks have killed tens to hundreds of thousands of iraqis and afghanis over the past few years, including whole families in their homes and whole extended families at wedding receptions, etc. you'll say that is collateral damage. though to the relatives of those killed, the brits/yanks are terrorists who invaded and are occupying their country.
even though i was against the yank/brit invasion and occupation of iraq, i was for the surge and hopefully, in a few decades, the history books will record the invasion/occupation of iraq as a success and it becomes a peaceful, prosperous, democratic country.
though, sodum, things aren't as black and white (bush/cheney war on terror = good, muslim evil doers = bad) as they seem to be in your mind, IMO.
Last edited by Farangrakthai; 4th July 2009 at 13:42.
....duck! ....those damn flying pigs....
Ok. I'm gonna simplify this, as I know it distracts the x-box crowd, those sheeple who can't be bothered with anything deeper than MSNBC Headlines, and the closet wanna-be rambo's who studiously avoid contact sports, locker room showers, and are still living in Mommy's basement, that have been posting.
Lesson 1; Al-Qaeda and how it became; kick-ass, glamorous, exciting even...
Obama must have stolen the ''Hope & Change'' brand from Osama. Like any revolutionary worth his bandolier, OBL's goal is to reclaim the fatherland, but to do this he needs to galvanize and indoctrinate the natives (bring them back to the true faith [his] and what better way than convincing them of their victimhood, than taking a swing at the biggest and baddest common [infidel] enemy) -- not much different than Castro or Che, really. Hard to get a revolution up and running without troops to get the job done. Besides, you might sprain an ankle.
Hope & Change is the strategy OBL brings to the Sunni Islamic world (the next caliphate starts in his view, as it did originally, in his own hometown's backyard BTW).
As the US is correctly viewed by most Muslims as the world's only superpower, and the protector of the corrupt gulf monarchies, it is understandably the primary target of Al-Qaeda. In the good old days, Islam was spreading like wildfire (even further than the Roman empire had spread), infidels knew their impious place, and being a Muslim was the ''in thing'' in the areas they controlled. Unfortunately all good things must come to an end, and so it was for the Ottoman Empire, and Caliphate in 1924.
Things went downhill (had been for awhile actually) rapidly as far as the Sunni's were concerned, as the white boys started showing up (Brits, French, Dutch, and eventually the US) and began meddling with just about everything. Lots of hate, ill will, and resentment towards the infidels (former Islamist's trailer trash) was generated.
For the most part, Sunni's just sucked it up. You know why? They were, and still are in some significant ways, deeply fragmented by tribes, clans, sects, sub-sects, race, ethnicity, ad nauseam). They also weren't stupid, and knew these guys with the flying machines, machine guns, and apparent limitless power could not be subdued from horseback or camel hump. They felt powerless, but got on with their lives, yet continued to feel complete victims of the injustice of it all.
Over time, the western powers and Russia installed and or supported the monarchies and dictators that filled the vacuum of newly defined national boundaries. Some disaffected folks started to resent these complicit relationships, and began yearning for the days when men were men, and Islam was a really kick-ass, glamourous, exciting religion to be part of --so they developed ideologies and agendas to export and expedite the return of the good old days. They were of course brutally repressed when possible, and with the direct or indirect assistance to their heads of state by Russia, Britain, Europe, America, and neighboring Muslim governments, the repression generally kept a lid on things.
The usual ebb and flow of colonialism, intolerance, intrigue, resentment, corruption , etc, continued. At least until this little chubby, bug-eyed toad and civil engineer showed up in Kuwait, began slumming with Palestinian refugees, and decided to start a terrorist group, and to dedicate his life to the liberation of Palestine by armed struggle, and of course for self enrichment;
--To Be continued --
Last edited by sodum; 4th July 2009 at 19:02.
I suggest you stop assuming people are ignorant simply because they disagree with your views.
Did the UN approve the US bombing of their water supplies? And didn't the UN's chief weapons inspector emphatically state that "Sadaam" was complying, and that he needed more time? Yet the US invaded unilaterally? I bet you swallowed all the lies about Al-Qaeda connections and WMDs, didn't you?The sanctions were approved by the United Nations. All Sadaam needed to do was to comply with the UN resolutions. Instead he violated them consistently until his overthrow in 2003. Sadaam was a brutal dictator, he easily could have provided for his people within the limits of the sanctions and he chose not to. The oil for food program was used to line the pockets of Sadaam, its UN administrators, private companies, fund Al-Qaeda and compensate suicide bombers.
There's a good article about it here:Aside from the left-wing conspiracy screeching websites, do you have any objective source (UN Report, etc) to substantiate your claim?
A Prayer for Water & Children; David James Duncan
Actual declassified documents about bombing the water supplies are here:
Uncle Sam&Pretensions to Innocence
I'm sure you can find the UN report yourself, seeing what a research guru you present yourself as.
I've been talking about America, genius, and I know even you are clever enough to understand that.Its been happening almost weekly around the globe. Put down that x-box and read.
I'm American, so I hold my own government accountable. Hard to blame other countries for their crimes when my government has done some pretty atrocious things.Amazing how all the whining, sniveling and shit slinging is directed at the US or ''West'', and not a peep about the the murder and mayhem against civilians by Islamists that happen almost weekly. Exactly no accountability attributed to them by anyone so far.
You are the stereotypical meathead soldier, aren't you? Someone disagrees with you so you resort to name-calling; if that doesn't work, you'll resort to violence. I'm really glad it's people like you representing me and my fellow Americans as you go raping and pillaging around the world in the name of Exxon, McDonald's and Starbucks - oh, and of course "democracy."Family reunions must be hell, trying to stay in the background and pretend to be mesmerized by elementary school cousins playing hop-scotch.
I don't ''assume you are ignorant'', barfomcgee.
If you've inferred that I've specifically called you a name in any of my posts, then I apologize for causing you to feel that way.
Come'on, high--five and group hug, what'ya say?
...a worrying reference, sodum...
...I mean, once you wipe the foam and spittle from your lips...
Call me a traditionalist, but I prefer the camel toe myself TC,...that's just me in my old-fashioned ways.
ive found it amusing on a few occassions how people who have served in the military think that they have this body of knowledge that NOOOO ONE else could possibly understand. such as:
like as an ordinary american, i have no possible idea that they hate me. only with your help, and the help of other GI's who donned armor and did physical training in the morning, can i possibly be aware of this.
and dont be put off by the sarcasm...its just that i feel, personally that im well informed that some hate us. that is absolutely irrelevant of the fact that a "war on evil" or a "war on bad feelings" could never be possibly won.
i dont need security clearances to know this. its the rhetoric of propaganda to make us live in fear of things we cant control. its a clever move of those who profit from war, to use the media to make us believe that with military might, we can defeat islamic extremism.
this is grabage. no covert ops missions, and intelligence briefings will bring about an end to it. but we all know that they need to build a better society in the middle east and elsewhere. until people are able to provide for their families and live fruitful lives, will they have less motivation to kill others. and even then, there will still be dead-enders.
the world isnt a secretive place. theres lots out there to show us the way. those who claim to have an X that you cant see, are playing the same game that the enemy is playing, albiet on a different team.
...whatever camel part turns you on...
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