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Thread: "Following Orders is No Excuse"

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    Senior Member esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1's Avatar
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    "Following Orders is No Excuse"

    "Who today will stand up to stop the potential armageddon of a US attack on Iran?"




    February 7, 2006

    http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02072006.html

    Following Orders is No Excuse
    Colin Powell's Career as a "Yes Man"
    By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

    "A hoax on the American people, the international community, and the United Nations Security Council."

    That is how Secretary of State General Colin Powell's February 2003 Iraq WMD speech to the UN was described last Friday (Feb. 3) on PBS by one who ought to know, Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Secretary Powell.

    In a February 2005 interview with Barbara Walters on ABC News "20/20" program, Powell himself declared his UN Iraq speech to be a blot on his reputation.

    Since departing the Bush administration, both Wilkerson and Powell have made it completely clear that they had serious doubts about the "evidence" of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and malevolent Iraqi intentions that was loaded by the White House into Powell's UN speech, a speech designed by neoconservatives to initiate the invasion of Iraq. Both Powell and Wilkerson knew that the "evidence" was greatly overstated if not an outright fabrication.

    What if Secretary Powell had shared his doubts with the UN? What if instead of reading the Speech of Lies Powell had addressed the UN as follows:

    "As a loyal soldier following orders I came here today intending to deliver the Bush administration's evidence against Saddam Hussein. Now that I am standing here before you, I find myself caught in conflict between following orders and doing the right thing. I should have resolved this conflict before I arrived. I do so now by delivering the speech to you in its written form--here it is--but I refuse to deliver it out of my mouth. I cannot participate in an act of deception against the United Nations Security Council, the international community, and the American people. I have no confidence in the evidence in the speech. Under the Nuremberg Standard established by the United States in the trials of Nazi war criminals, following orders is no excuse. I will not participate in the war crime of naked aggression against another state. I hereby resign as Secretary of State of the United States."

    Powell would have saved the world from a strategic blunder, the disastrous consequences of which are only beginning to unfold. The maelstrom set in motion by the treachery of the neoconservatives, people who Powell has decribed as "crazy," has already cost tens of thousands of dead and wounded and hundreds of billions of dollars, destroyed America's reputation, and radicalized Middle East politics.

    If Powell had refused three years ago to deliver the Speech of Lies, we would not now be watching an identical duplicity being rolled out against Iran. The ultimate cost of the deception being practiced on the American people will dwarf the terrible price that has already been paid.

    Why didn't Powell do the right thing? His own reputation would have been forever secure as a man of integrity. Why did he sacrifice his integrity to the crooked scheme of his commander in chief?

    Alas, that is the way our generals are bred. In the politicized US military, no officer can advance beyond the rank of Lt. Col. unless he toes the political line. The game is played to advance in rank as high as possible, collect the pension, and be rewarded for compliant behavior with consultancies. Real leadership means making waves, and that is not tolerated.

    Even in rare instances of a real man, concerned with the honor of his country and the safety of his troops, reaching the top, he is powerless to prevent disastrous mistakes of the ignorant civilian authorities. Consider the fate of US Army Chief of Staff General Eric Shinseki, who correctly informed Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld that the US invasion force was not sufficiently numerous to successfully occupy and subdue Iraq once the pitched battles were over. Shinseki was fired for telling the truth--as was Secretary of the Army Thomas White, Lt. Gen. John Riggs, and four star general Kevin P. Byrnes. Riggs was framed, demoted, and retired for saying that the US army was overstretched in Iraq and Afghanistan and needed more troops. Byrnes, who was in charge of Army training, was framed on adultery charges for objecting to bottom of the barrel recruitment policies that accepted criminals and immigrants with a lack of English proficiency. Nothing like having an army that can't understand orders.

    The only way a military can constrain their civilian masters from cooking up a war is to resign in mass. If every general and colonel had resigned, there would have been no invasion of Iraq. But this would require a military with leadership and a tradition of sticking together. A military in which promotion is the highest virtue is powerless to prevent disastrous mistakes, such as the invasion of Iraq.

    The Bush administration went to war on the basis of its fantasy that if merely a few US troops marched into Iraq, the regime would collapse and the population would welcome Americans as liberators with flowers and kisses. It was to be a "cakewalk war."

    No general officer in the US military believed that. Yet few spoke out (Marine General Anthony Zinni was a notable exception). The entire US military command could only produce a handful of men to warn of the looming catastrophe. Who can forget the orchestrated media dismissals of "over-cautious generals" that greeted these few?
    The reason Colin Powell disgraced himself is that he could not free himself of the conditioning that breeds success in the US military.

    Who today will stand up to stop the potential armageddon of a US attack on Iran?

    Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com


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    Re: "Following Orders is No Excuse"

    Quote Originally Posted by esoteric1
    Who today will stand up to stop the potential armageddon of a US attack on Iran?
    I'll be waiting for you, Raycarey, Kerux, Peacebondie, IJWT and the other foaming at the mouth morons to perform your civic duty.

    It's time to stop talking and start protesting ... but you won't, you'd rather point fingers at others for what they do or don't do

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    Senior Member esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1's Avatar
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    Fitting ... sit around munching buttered popcorn getting fatter and fatter while you wait for others to do the heavy lifting

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    Senior Member esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1's Avatar
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    Ex-TEFLer (Quitter) Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper has a reputation beyond repute Storekeeper's Avatar
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    sinneslöshen Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell has a reputation beyond repute Unwell's Avatar
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    powell is a little toady scumbag.

    he knew what was going on and stood for it.

    what's the expression about good men doing nothing...


    "...ever wonder why they kill the weak ones, baby?"

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    Senior Member esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1's Avatar
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    is that enough foreplay now?



    Posted after 1 minute 43 seconds:

    Where's a Patton or MacArthur when ya really need em?


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    Quote Originally Posted by esoteric1
    Where's a Patton or MacArthur when ya really need em?
    I thought you didn't like Masons ?

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    Senior Member esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1 has a reputation beyond repute esoteric1's Avatar
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    They were good generals.....and not overtly yes-men.


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    Right on 9/11 from 9/11 Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux has a reputation beyond repute Kerux's Avatar
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    "you'd rather point fingers at others
    for what they do or don't do"

    What most war hawks, like you, don't do is fight the wars they start.

    Cheney had 'other priorities." Well, my 18 year old son has other priorities too, and that is to not get his guts blown out so Cheney can fill his offshore accounts with taxpayer dollars.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



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    Regular User ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley has a reputation beyond repute ben bradley's Avatar
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    Of course this is not true for all soldiers, particularly those who went to West Point, the Naval Academy (etc.) but when I see high-ranked jarheads wearing costume jewelry trying to speak on TV, I am reminded of the fact that the US Armed Forces will glady accept into their ranks anyone who can scratch "X" on a piece of paper and, more disturbingly, is willing to risk their life for $1,500 a month.
    "A man has got to know his limitations."

    Harry Callahan

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    Wannabe Guru theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01 has a reputation beyond repute theent01's Avatar
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    um, sk, i think you missed the plot on this one, the original post was about military people having the courage to say the right thing and go against the grain, to act on their consciences instead of for a promotion, to not be a yes man.

    your statement for IJWT, raycarey, kerux (probably me as well) to get out there and do something about it, while it may be a good sentiment, has nothing to do with the OP. These folks aren't in the military, hence cannot do the aforementioned actions of resigning their military post or speaking up for the right thing within the military. We're TEFL teachers, we ain't in the military.

    There's still hope for you though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by theent01
    um, sk, i think you missed the plot on this one, the original post was about military people having the courage to say the right thing and go against the grain, to act on their consciences instead of for a promotion, to not be a yes man.
    I didn't miss the plot at all. The OP is an attack on a good officer like General Powell, who by the way had already earned a 4 star pension and was a civilian. Powell could have still been the SECSTATE but resigned over his disagreement with the Bush administration. But even more I have a pretty good feeling that eso was just making a transparent attempt at a sleight of hand to vent his feelings about me and my choice of career.
    You in particular I would think would be a little more touchy about the way eso is trying to slander a military man. Especially since you're on record as being the son of a military retiree. Isn't your father a Vietnam veteran ?
    In order for the proposed premise of the OP to be true all these officers must be real cowards if they actually don't support the actions of the current administration and don't bail out. That's a pretty big leap ... a pretty big assumption.

    Theent01 you're a fair minded poster and think critically most of the time but it's time like these when I question your ability to recognize the motives of the guys who post rubbish like this. Guys like Kerux and esoteric stand for nothing ... are nothing ... and always will be nothing.

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