Well, a reference to me implies a positive recommendation.People normally give a positive reference even if the candidate is bad due to the fact that they can get sued for libel if they say things that are not true.
I think what you can get sued for is writing a reference then dissing off the candidate when an potential employer phones. And rightfully so.
There are companies around who are set up to phone the people who have provided positive references then backtracked on the phone. This can be very costly.
If a person spends a year or two or more working for a company then I think it is the responsibility of the company to provide a reference.
Otherwise a person is caught in the trap of not being able to provide a reference for a period of their working life, which most employers are going to be very suspicious of.
So I can't really agree with you on the relative importance of the reference vs the interview. You seem to be say that the interview should be 100 percent, references zero.
I think this is a recipe for disaster over the long run. It's also not really professional...again, strictly IMO.
What people are failing to realize is that references are not necessarily "former employers" but often third party professionals. My references include collegues I may have once worked with but they have moved on, former bosses, close associates that are not former colleagues but may work in the same field, former professors, close friends with some standing and verifiable clout in the community, a priest, a rabbi, a nun...ya get my drift?
People other than your former employers can act as references and be of quality.
Employers mostly refuse to be a reference when honest comments would be on the negative side. Some are clever about not commenting while still giving a negative comment.
One of my former PR buds had a crisis of meaning and quit his job and went on the road with just a backpack and thumb. Later, returning to the professional world, he used his former boss as a reference, who repeatedly would tell his potential new bosses: "I don't have anything to say but can you ask Larry if he's found the meaning of life yet?"
"Goddamn it Lord, bless oh ye this bacon..."
George Liquor American
^ But, of course, the present employer may actually require you to give the name of a reference at your last employer - in other words they want to stipulate who the reference comes from, not allow you to effectively choose references from associates or friends which will, of course, be automatically positive. Depends how it's worded.
Yeah, all honesty. My only point is that former employers are not the only references in the world. If someone calls a professor at a respected university, they can expect some sort of objective evaluation of character. Was he a good student? Did he participate in extra activities, etc...
^ Yes - but can the professor even remember the student, especially if it's more than a couple of years since they left college? They probably just use standard wording/phrasing. Same as last year's stuff, except for the odd student who really stood out. Can't entirely blame them.
He still is m8, saw him in Hadyai about 10 days ago.Originally Posted by LDMA
And will always be.Originally Posted by Tommyk
Last edited by likewise; 24th May 2007 at 19:59. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
What's love got to do with it...........
Originally Posted by Whitey
A silly question I suppose but is it possible nowadays to get an education degree without an elective in self - righteousness?
dude, i think you're missing the point...Originally Posted by paully
No reference is entirely 'objective', pan, even one from a professor. The future employer is also interested in the referee's opinion of a former student as well as did he/she actually attend classes or participate in the college Chess Club. To that extent, it does matter if the professor can remember the student or is just giving a bland general recommendation.
I agree with this, especially the interview being the most important. In a former life I was responsible for hiring for an organization of the Federal government, and in almost 25 years interviewed several thousand applicants. It wasn't really that difficult to tell those who would be good employees and those who wouldn't be.Originally Posted by kingwilly
As far as references go, we usually required at least three from people who knew the applicant well. We expected, and in more than 95% of the cases, received nothing but positive recommendations.
However, we also required an employment history with the name of the organization and his or her supervisor. Often, especially with larger companies, we were given nothing because of company policy prohibiting any comment on former employees. We were, however, often able to get information (with a signed release), from smaller organizations with a telephone call.
We usually, but not always, got positive recommendations. This, I believe, was due to the fact that we eliminated from consideration most of the unsuitable candidates at the interview stage. If we didn't like the person we simply didn't go any further, and we were generally able to eliminate those who would not be good employees.
Without an interview, by someone who can tell who is likely to be a good employee, any organization is opening itself up to the problems talked about here. As a final point, when I say "good employee" I do not necessarily mean a good teacher. Rather, I am talking about a person who will be dedicated enough to show up for work and at least try to do a good job, whatever that job is, and have the ability to develop skill in the area if not fully capable to begin with.
I agree with the references, many Thai companies now only give a letter of employment record - name, time worked , position, and sometimes salary.
What oisses me off even more though, are people who "load" their resume.
I have no idea how much this happens in your profession, but the amount of bs I see in resumes of certain GM's in this country astounds me.
What's more, the idiot Board of Directors that hire them believe what they read without even a cursory check.
I have seen tradesmen claim they built super yachts, but in reality only installed the furniture - it really makes me sick.
He came, He saw, He took what he could and Fu**ed off quick smart, TIT for teaching in "The Land of Smiles"
^ Not this lovely chap, apparently - he's still here!
Originally Posted by likewise
Why? If you care to elaborate.Originally Posted by likewise
ลาน้องก่อน พี่จนถึงต้องจำจาก, ถึงแม้พี่จะหลงรัก ฐานะพาพราก ต้องจากจอมใจ
ถ้าหากมั่งมี แล้วพี่จะคืนมาใหม่, ไม่ว่าจะอยู่แห่งไหน จะนานเท่าไร ยังไม่ลืมบาง...
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Let me see if I'm right: posters from Hat Yai are-
anyone else perhaps?