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Thread: Arbitration

  1. #61
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    Re: Arbitration

    Quote Originally Posted by defender
    So, in theory, how would a man in your position - a businessman in the ESL world - feel about investing in a 'professional' organisation that is entirely independent of businesses and managed and run entirely by teachers and DOS?

    Would you be up for it? Even if you would get no protection and they would be looking into your schools and businesses the same way as everybody else's.
    Of course I would be up for it. We are already members of the Better Busines bureau in the US. It is exactly the same thing. We have to pay a fee to belong and use their logo on ourr site. They will also mediate disputes based upon the facts. They do not support the businesses.

    I would be very willing to assist this new organization and I told that to esljudge. Good and honest schools do not need any kind of bias. We just want "truth and justice" but thats not easy to find.

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    Senior Member Array russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    ^Phil did some house cleaning and removed some off topic posts.
    Thanks Jellybean for explaining that.

    That reminds me of a good line expressed by the carpentry apprentice to his boss....

    "Jees, I've already cut it three times and it's still to short!"
    When being run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make it appear like a parade.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array defender's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    Not me you have to convince mate!

    First step is convincing the other ten million businesses in the ESL world that they should part with their readies. Second step is to convince teachers that the organisation is provided to represent them and not the employers. Step three is to get teachers convinced that it's worthwhile for them to join up!

    Oh, sorry I missed the first first step - finding a bunch of people ready to work pretty hard for a year or two in the interest of the little people with no guaranteed income at the end of it.

    I'm not trying to be over-cynical, just playing devil's advocate a bit. At the end of the day I think the unification of the ESL/EFL world into a professionally funded and run, independent organisation is a bloody top idea - just a bit Utopian to get my pulse racing!
    -----
    Worth remembering too - an awful lot of schools/agencies/employers in Thailand (and I'm sure other places too) don't respect their own nation's laws in respect of their treatment of foreign workers. Very hard to see how they would respect the intervention of a voluntary arbiter!
    Last edited by defender; 17th August 2007 at 10:31. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  4. #64
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    Re: Arbitration

    esljudge seems to think good korean schools would be up for it. All we can do is hope. Support from legitimate websites would help.

    The BBB in the US does not operate on 100 percent participation. They have a small membership that keeps it operational. But they accept any case that comes in and post the results on their site. If any company has unresolved casses against them it is a warning flag. All members are required to resolve all cases against them or they ose member ship. That happened to one of those Canadian TESOL couses a few years back--they lost their membership in BBB because of unresolved complaints. I guarantee that it was very embarassing to them.
    Last edited by Bruce; 17th August 2007 at 10:57.

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    Re: Arbitration

    I'm not sure it would be legally binding, more an attempt at factfinding. I see that TEFL Watch thinks it's a good idea as it's already announced it will be implementing something similar.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Array defender's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    Didn't Bangkok Phil say we weren't allowed to discuss other forums on this thread Louis?


    -----
    Ooops, sorry forgot. You're the boss ..... was it you who deleted BP's post?

    Last edited by defender; 17th August 2007 at 10:51. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array Bangkok Phil's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    No, Phil deleted his own post for continuity.
    The worst job in Thailand must be the man who has to sit down with a blue marker pen and mark a number two on the two-baht coins to stop people thinking they are one-baht coins.

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    Re: Arbitration

    Quote Originally Posted by defender
    First step is convincing the other ten million businesses in the ESL world that they should part with their readies. Second step is to convince teachers that the organisation is provided to represent them and not the employers. Step three is to get teachers convinced that it's worthwhile for them to join up!
    Sorry if I missed something, but I never saw anything in the OP to suggest that this was to "represent them (teachers) and not the employers." I thought the idea was that this was to be an impartial organization that would try to resolve disagreements between schools and teachers, through arbitration or something else, binding or otherwise.

    Of course, many teachers would not want to have an impartial organization review their complaints because the are terrible teachers. There are, however, some disputes that arise from misunderstandings and could perhaps be resolved through such a process as this.

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    Senior Member Array stfranalum's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    Quote Originally Posted by Umbuku
    Without a representative on the ground and capable of investigating the claims of either party further how can an arbitration be reached?


    teacher: "i was wronged in X way"

    school: "no you werent"

    arbitrator: "well, its his word against yours. since ive never set foot onto your campus, spoke to no teachers, and have zero perspective, guess im gonna have to side with the school :asskiss: on this one. sorry teacher, i will nver see you again- but this school- well, its better for me to cultivate a relationship with them so without ANY evidence im gonna have to go with my best interests"
    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by defender
    unification of the ESL/EFL world into a professionally funded and run, independent organisation is a bloody top idea - just a bit Utopian to get my pulse racing!
    absolutely utopian. for any context, id say.

    but if one were to have liftoff potential, korea id say it has it. its an organized technology-friendly place. both the desire to be organized and the infrastructure to support the technology that would be required to make it work.

    but what do you do when a school opts out of the arbitration? or do you make the ability to grant work visas dependant on their involvement with the arbitrators? and if the government is making it mandatory- do you think they wouldnt have any oversight into it? and from a foreign company

    but if a school opted out---what if they have a marketable product- namely- they have good teachers and a good learning program?

    do you convince students not to enroll in their successful program because that school chooses not to have a foreign arbitrator? homeboy this is asia- not wanting a foreign arbitrator in your business is par for the course. in fact, koreans would call that a badge of honor- "being able to take care of their own business without the waygook's help!"
    Last edited by stfranalum; 17th August 2007 at 13:26. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array defender's Avatar
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    Re: Arbitration

    Quote Originally Posted by latm
    Sorry if I missed something, but I never saw anything in the OP to suggest that this was to "represent them (teachers) and not the employers." I thought the idea was that this was to be an impartial organization that would try to resolve disagreements between schools and teachers, through arbitration or something else, binding or otherwise.
    Perhaps If had said...

    Quote Originally Posted by defender
    Second step is to convince teachers that the organisation is provided to represent them and not only the employers.
    Which was what I meant in any case
    -----
    Bearing in mind that we were discussing organisational funding from ESL enterprises, I don't think it would a small feat to convince teachers that their potential employers were parting with cash to fund an 'independent' organisation!

    I have already confessed to being a cynic at least once on this thread!
    Last edited by defender; 17th August 2007 at 14:06. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  11. #71
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    Re: Arbitration

    stfranalum, the solution is easy. Volunteer. Be an arbitrator. Thats what this guy is looking for.. people who have no reason to cave in just because of what the school wants.

    If every person on this thread who says "it cannot be done" would Email this guy in Korea and commit to 5 hours per year perhaps this might acrually work!

  12. #72
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    Re: Arbitration

    Yeah and this organization will support TEFL International because we all know that TEFL International is squeaky clean. I wonder if this organization(with support from Bruce) came about because of his listing on TEFLWatch?
    Are you actually reading this? Do you think I care?

  13. #73
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    Re: Arbitration

    Whitey, TEFL International does not have a single teacher that claims we owe them a cent. We did, exactly once. That was about 5 years ago and he was badly embarassed in court. It kinda sucks when you claim you were not paid but we have the copy of your cashed check and the release paper you signed saying you had been paid in full. Oops.

    I, personally, have one guy who claims I owe him money. But that has nothing to do with TEFL International and that guy has no intention of submitting to any arbitration. I have offered, over and over, to try to resolve his dispute but he continues to reject any attempt to solve this little problem. I guess he figures his dispute with me is his "15 minutes of fame".

    My point is, TEFL International seems a pretty unlikely client. We are not a major employer and we have pretty happy trainers.

    Does this new project have something to do with other unprofessional websites? Probably. I think that other websites have shown just how necessary a professionally-run website is.

    You posted earlier that you were going to contact the guy running the site. Did you get a response? Again, the more people that participate the better. I plan to help any and every way I can.
    Last edited by Bruce; 17th August 2007 at 17:51.

  14. #74
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    Re: Arbitration

    And I hope the esljudge admin is more willing to take your support than the TEFLWatch admin was because you pull a lot of weight in the TEFL industry and any support you give a site can go a long way in providing accurate, unbiased information about not only your company but many others you own a part of.

    I really like the movie Pale Rider when Clint Eastwood's character is meeting the town mayor/mine owner and offers to build him a church and telling him that if he supports him, the congregation would make him very comfortable.

    I forget what Clint Eastwood told him, but was it the same that the TW admin told you when you offered to support TW in exchange for putting TI in a better light?

    Just questions, just innoncent questions here.

  15. #75
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    Re: Arbitration

    Haha, Whitey if you think you know anything about my communications with the.. folks... at less-professional sites I believe you are mistaken. There was never an offer of any kind of financial support. Ever. I believe the only comment I ever made that can be twisted into a comment like you are suggesting is a one-time comment where I said, in utter exasperation, that the other site could be good and would be worthy of support IF it were run more professionally.

    I would love to be able to tell our grads about a professional site that could assist them in resolving disputes. They are the ones that run into trouble on occasion, not TEFL International. Unfortunately, as of today, that site does not exist.

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