Originally Posted by bobman_y2k
Bobman...nothing wrong with the questions. In fact they're good questions that it would be incumbent on any professional organization organization to address.
But Bruce is signing off. Let the man go in peace. Ten years in the TEFL business in Thailand regardless of the renumeration, does it really matter?
Restoring Classic cars is good. That's a nice change. And life goes on. Right?
When being run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make it appear like a parade.
Good luck Bruce! When deciding on a TEFL course, I had applied to Tefl International and had very prompt, and informative answers to my questions. Even though, I decided to go with the CELTA instead, I did appreciate your responses.
Who are the Board of Directors? His mother, his wife? His friends? That doesn't matter. What matters is that he is getting into a new line of work, away from the challenges that he has been facing. It's a nice thing to do and I wish him all the luck in the world!
Are you actually reading this? Do you think I care?
Get any more pay because of having the CELTA?Originally Posted by phuketbound
^ Usually a wider choce of jobs in a broader selction of countries is the incentive for doing a CELTA, rather than increased pay compared to colleagues with other less recognised certs.
The same thing in four weeks????? You have got to be joking.Originally Posted by crew
Originally Posted by CyrilleLets get real people...its a piece of paper saying you have done some classroom lessons lasting minutes, prepared a few sketches (that are useless to large classes), learnt the importance of planning and drunk some booze...and if you didn't have any time to drink some booze (or socialise) I don't know what to think.Originally Posted by itsmeagain
I dont mean to be rude but thought that a CELTA, TEFL Intl or anything lasting 4 weeks is anything more than a most basic introduction to teaching...is unrealisitic...and to read some of the posts here from those alumni (I love it!!) criticising Khao San Road alumni is pure farce.
TEFLing is a legitimate and valuable service to the world...but some TEFLers have a self image way beyond their station.
Another of your posts with more holes in it than a bamboo rice steamer.Originally Posted by kiwiling
1) Nobody is saying any four week courses are more than an introduction. Read 'it'smeagain's post again with your blinkers off.
2) Why would 'KSR alumni', with no training whatsoever and dubious integrity and motivation into the bargain, not deserve criticism?
3) If you're just on a wind up, at least make the minimal effort required to frame a half way cogent argument.
Well that's livened up the afternoonOriginally Posted by Cyrille
I guess I am a bit cynical of the crap handed out to some of the entrepreneurs in the game by people who have a CELTA or TEFL ticket. So I thought it appropriate to put some balance in as to what I think the tickets are worth...I have a TEFL International ticket.Originally Posted by Cyrille
A Khao San road or diploma mill alumni buys a piece of paper faking that he or she did a university degree...its worth jack shite. A TEFL or Celta alumni has a 4 week working holiday playing teacher. So what is a TEFL or CELTA worth in the real world...jack shite.
Many of us older dudes have been on intensive short courses that have been very informative and improved our skills...we usually get a certificate or diploma for the effort... but what do they mean in the real world...jack shite.
A CELTA or TEFL certificate is no more valuable than any other short course...a relevant comment buried somewhere in the CV. Its bragging rights are zilch.
Any employer looks at the work record before the qualifications anyway. To be very honest if a person was a Khao San alumni but had worked successfully in the game for 10 years or so...it wouldn't worry me as along as the work record showed his/her true skills.
Compare that with some heavy drinking sex pat who did a genuine degree 30 years ago and gets a Thai girlfriend...does a CELTA and turns up for a job...do I need to say more?
Hows that for a half cogent argument?
Yep. About half.Originally Posted by kiwiling
I understand you point. And largely agree.Lets get real people...its a piece of paper saying you have done some classroom lessons lasting minutes, prepared a few sketches (that are useless to large classes), learnt the importance of planning and drunk some booze...and if you didn't have any time to drink some booze (or socialise) I don't know what to think.
But a minor distinction...there is actually quite a difference between a CELTA and other certificates. Few, if any, would claim they spent the time socialisong and drinking booze. Although only four weeks, it is a bloody intense four weeks.
And it gets you Uni credits (one subject) if you go on to further related studies, in Australia anyway.
So it does mean a little more tha 'jack shite'.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
The TEFL International ticket is also quite intense...I never got to the bar much before 9 and sometimes 11 (pm!!!). The NZ Univerisities wouldn't give you anything for it...or the CELTA for that matter. The National Qualifications framework could recognise it because the recorded portfolio from TEFL International is very specific about what was done.Originally Posted by torbek
That is an important point about the TEFL International course that has been missed. Every single thing done by the "alumni" is recorded on their file for them to take. So the prospective employer can actually see what they did...or didn't do.
These files do count. I recruited a non native on the basis of her work portfolio...which was very impressive. Her degrees might have been from Harvard...or Khao San Road but her recent work looked good...and she has lived up to it.
I admit my comments are flippant...but my point is the same...short courses amount for nit noi, very little...I apologise for saying jack shite.
Yes, much better. Halfway there.Originally Posted by kiwiling
Couple of points though
1) A TEFL or Celta alumni has a 4 week working holiday playing teacher. So what is a TEFL or CELTA worth in the real world...jack shite.
A CELTA isn't 'worth jackshit' it's a months training with people who largely know their stuff, and is very intensive. I take it you haven't done it, so how on earth can you logically conclude it is worth jackshit? (yes, everyone has accepted it is a short course, and can only act as an introduction)
The 'no bregging rights' argument is irrelevant - I'm not bragging.
2) 'Any employer looks at the work record before the qualifications anyway.'
Any employer for a job worth having will look at both. In fact, since work records are so difficult to verify they will generally want to see verified qualifications first, before contacting previous employers. In fact time is often too short to contact employers - making certificates even more important.
3) To be very honest if a person was a Khao San alumni but had worked successfully in the game for 10 years or so...it wouldn't worry me as along as the work record showed his/her true skills.
If someone had a fake degree and cert then you would view their work record without any suspicion? You're a trusting fella.
4) Compare that with some heavy drinking sex pat who did a genuine degree 30 years ago and gets a Thai girlfriend...does a CELTA and turns up for a job...do I need to say more?
Obviously a heavy drinking sexpat with a CELTA is not an attractive candidate. Though suggesting that having a thai girlfriend makes a candidiate dubious reveals a whole raft of your prejudices.
Nobody is saying a CELTA is the be all and end all of hiring a suitable candidiate. It gets soooo tedious on here when people invent easily defeatable arguments and then spend an age defeating an argument that nobody has put forward.
Are you seriously saying that someone who is sufficiently deceitful, demotivated and/or destitute to get a fake degree and fake cert. could still be a suitable candidate for a job you were hiring for?
God help your school.
Last edited by Cyrille; 16th September 2007 at 16:09.
^ Yes, God help them.
I decided to do the CELTA instead of the TEFL with TEFL International, for a few reasons. I found the CELTA was more recognized around the world. Especially in Europe if I ever decide to teach there. The TEFL Int. was based more on working in Thailand, and I wanted a qualification that was recognized world wide if I ever decided to teach adults.
The course is intensive, and definitely allowed me to learn more about grammar terms, lesson planning, and gave me practice with teaching adults, that I did not learn in Teacher's college.
If people who only take the CELTA or the TEFL Int. as a basis to teach EFL, then I'd say it is a base from which to start from. Learning by experience is a big part of teaching.
Work experience counts for a lot, but for someone who wants to start teaching EFL, then the CELTA is a good one to take.
That's a good point. I have a friend who is a Geography teacher with a PGCE.Originally Posted by phuketbound
He did the CELTA a couple of years ago as he was aware that methodology for ESOL teaching was considerably different to the training he received on his PGCE.
He speaks highly of the course he took, and now teaches ESOL as his subsidiary subject.
Just shows that a PGCE isn't the 'be all and end all' either (though, before anyone says it, yes of course a PGCE is more thorough than an introductory TESOL course)