Ethics, fundamentalist teachers, and just punishments - Ajarn Forum

Chan Gibbon · 8th May 2008, 08:23

There is a problem that has been bugging me for some time now with regards to a particular teacher (he shall, of course, remain nameless) who appears to be allowing his "spiritual" beliefs to influence the way the children are disciplined.

I haven't been teaching for very long and I'd like to know what other teachers think (seasoned or otherwise!) with regards to this issue...

A few weeks ago, during summer school, I caught one of the children (grade 8) surfing the internet and doing his own thing after I had laid down the rules quite directly. I decided to "make an example of him" knowing that this class is particularly difficult to control and I need the kids to know that they can't just do whatever they like; so I sent him back to his classroom and told him to wait there for me... then I went there and he was gone! To cut a long story short it turned out that he had been punished by one of the Thai teachers and then taken to a head teacher for further punishment! I thought this was unacceptable as the child was in tears, clearly emasculated, and for no good reason; only I knew what he had done and the punishment did not befit the misdemeanor (I had actually planned to give him a short lecture, make a small joke of it all, then bring him back to class. Instead, the child now looks at me like a complete monster)!

After having told what had happened, the aforementioned "fundamentalist" surprised me with the comment that the child's "ego was too big", that it needed to be "broken down", and that the child was a bad influence on the other students. He also suggested that the child could easily become another "Bush" or "Hitler" should we not look after "his spiritual development" (all dead-pan, very serious). From then on some of the staff, including myself, have had endless lectures about the chakras and how we have to balance these in order for the students to progress "positively".

I spoke to him about this. I was told that I was defending the child in question and that this meant that something obviously happened to me as a child that I still needed to resolve in order to find peace!! He also said I was "focusing too much on justice whereas [he] is more interested in the spiritual growth of the children". In response, I said that I believe that a teacher's job is to teach and not to function as a guru. As such, Thai children can look after their own spiritual development and we teachers can simply focus on making sure that the children get the punishments they deserve.

He was right about one thing, though; I am defending the student. We were in the wrong! I do believe that a teacher has to have at least some vague notion of justice, even if only for the times when he/she has to deal with students who present problems.

I decided to use the example above but, more generally, some staff have received pep-talks on various occasions about how to focus upon the children's "positive development". Personally, I think that the students need room to breathe and even to get away with "minor naughties" on occasion, just to make sure that they have enough space to find their own identity.

This is my present opinion. I'm a new teacher and maybe I'm not dealing with this the right way. I'm open to constructive criticism. Maybe I've read too much into things. I've thought about it a lot; enough to know that this issue genuinely bothers me! I have no real problem with "spiritualism" (thought it's always seemed unsuitably vague to me) and I have no problem with religion. I'm religious myself, not that anybody would ever know. But I try not to impress my beliefs upon the students and I certainly don't agree with hidden "spiritual agendas".

What do others think? Am I being stupid?

Whose Wandering? · 8th May 2008, 10:14

^ I don't think you're being stupid. In fact, I agree with you wholeheartedly. There are some people in this profession who are so in love with their own power and authority that they forget how to behave themselves. I doubt that child needed such a severe reprimand but it depends on the circumstance. Many people here become embittered and cynical towards to the whole teaching profession, just make sure you maintain your positive views on children and teaching. They're innocent and forgiving if you're just and fair even if you are reprimanding them for a transgression. But if you abuse them and your authority you'll fall into a pit that difficult to pull yourself out of.
Btw, spiritual agendas = bs. You can have morals and ethics without religious mumbo jumbo.

Bangkok Phil · 8th May 2008, 10:48

You're bang on Chan. Good post by the way.

Teachers have a responsibility to act like teachers.

In the brilliant 'Teaching English in Asia' by Galen Harris Vale (kill for a copy if you don't have one but it's very difficult to find) he tells the story of his academic director days and performing one or two unannounced observations. In one classroom he found the new teacher leading the class through a meditation routine with all the students sitting cross-legged on a dirty floor.

This is what he writes.

As i entered the room, all of the students looked at me with pleading looks on their faces. It was clear that a conference was in order. The teacher suggested that the class needed to relax by clearing their minds before the session began. I asked how the students could relax while sitting on a dirty floor, looking at a teacher in a very unattractive position while attempting to chant an incomprehensible mantra.

"They know about meditation" the teacher said
"They know not to do it in an English class" I replied.
"Thais like to sit on the floor" she said
"Thais like to sit on a clean floor" I replied.
"You just don't understand" she said
"What I do understand is that these people spend a lot more time shopping and watching TV than trying to be at one with the universe"
"That's the problem" she said.
"That's not the problem" I replied. "these people come here to study English so they can have a conversation with Ted the fabric buyer from XYZ company, not listen to the ravings of a Sears version of Mahatma Gandhi. I think you would be far more comfortable handing out leaflets from some cage in an airport than teaching here quite frankly"

And with that the teacher stormed out and was never seen again.

It's a great story. I love it. I've only ever had a problem with one teacher who wanted to stray outside the acceptable norm. Let's just say that her teaching in class involved an enthusistic over-use of the word Jesus.
I spoke to her about it. She refused to change. So she was fired. Teachers should just be teachers.

WhatsGrammar? · 8th May 2008, 10:58

If it was your intention to give a small lecture AND make a bit of a joke about it then sending the student to the classroom was probably not the way to go with this. That would suggest a more severe form of punishment. I assume that you left your class unattended whilst you went to the classroom.
I,m not critiscising but if your intention is to give a jokey little lecture then that could have been dealt with in the corner of the classroom in a quiet one on one basis. IMHO

Mr Pants · 8th May 2008, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatsGrammar?

I,m not critiscising but if your intention is to give a jokey little lecture then that could have been dealt with in the corner of the classroom in a quiet one on one basis. IMHO

Agreed

You're a new teacher so don't worry too much - learn from the experience. It takes time to learn how much discipline should be used in different situations.

jonny danger · 8th May 2008, 13:26

God how I hate Christian doctrine in my face. I worked at a Christian school once. Same same there. Fuckin go die, all of you!

Chan Gibbon · 8th May 2008, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatsGrammar?

If it was your intention to give a small lecture AND make a bit of a joke about it then sending the student to the classroom was probably not the way to go with this. That would suggest a more severe form of punishment. I assume that you left your class unattended whilst you went to the classroom.
I,m not critiscising but if your intention is to give a jokey little lecture then that could have been dealt with in the corner of the classroom in a quiet one on one basis. IMHO

Never again shall I forget about the corners! Good advice, thank you. It's hard to think about simple stuff like this when you're feeling overwhelmed.

chuck_s · 8th May 2008, 14:29

In my dept. we had the head of the English Dept. who was an older thai, he used to single out all the ladyboys and beat the crap out of them with his stick as a form of punishment. I asked him one day, why was he singling them out. He told me, to mind my own business, I ended up calling a sadist.

bewildered wanderer · 8th May 2008, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whose Wandering?

They're innocent and forgiving

whatever
maybe kindergarten and early primary, but 8th graders being innocent and forgiving...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bangkok Phil

Teachers have a responsibility to act like teachers.

Sure do, but when parents don't maintain their responsibilities, teachers are left with more than their fair share.

But that boss is a bit off with the chakra crap (not that I don't understand him, but he shouldn't be following that line of explanation) IMO

Topper · 8th May 2008, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatsGrammar?

If it was your intention to give a small lecture AND make a bit of a joke about it then sending the student to the classroom was probably not the way to go with this. That would suggest a more severe form of punishment. I assume that you left your class unattended whilst you went to the classroom.
I,m not critiscising but if your intention is to give a jokey little lecture then that could have been dealt with in the corner of the classroom in a quiet one on one basis. IMHO

Also, once a student is outside your classroom, then he's outside your control. If you want to control the discipline, you have to keep the student with you.

And by the way, good job! Agree with you completely.

robitusson · 8th May 2008, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan Gibbon

I haven't been teaching for very long and I'd like to know what other teachers think (seasoned or otherwise!) with regards to this issue...

If the system is such that white skin and being a "Farang" are more important than being a trained, professional teacher, then whatever baggage people bring to the classroom is only to be expected, and the responsibility rests with the school admin.

Sanuk Canuk · 8th May 2008, 23:30

I wouldn't sweat it too much, granted Thai teachers seem to be either too permissive or too harsh (usually depending on their gender). To the best of your knowledge you were sending the kid off for a little "time out" what the kid actually recieved was not really your fault.

I also wouldn't sweat it to much about the retard you work with. If you are in a position to do something about him then do so, if not then just keep your distance. All you can do is your best, the fact that you appear t give a crap puts you ahead of the curve.

Chan Gibbon · 9th May 2008, 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by robitusson

If the system is such that white skin and being a "Farang" are more important than being a trained, professional teacher, then whatever baggage people bring to the classroom is only to be expected, and the responsibility rests with the school admin.

Certainly, though at my school all staff required past experience, degrees, and training to qualify for employment. Unfortunately, the administration will not necessarily be able to pick up on a teachers own "agenda" (if any) during preliminary observation. Once the teacher is on the payroll and term time begins, I imagine that it's too difficult for managers to fire staff. Come to think of it, it's quite possible that if the teacher is old enough to have gathered some soluble income, managers may not want to risk offending the teacher over a "sensitive subject" like their spiritual beliefs (lest they're left with a course and no teacher).

Rather depressingly, this puts the students in a position of extreme vulnerability as (one presumes) they cannot speak out against any infraction that's less obvious than child beating. Whilst I imagine that this is almost unavoidable in our profession, I think it might be sensible to include termly/yearly seminars in which ethical issues are raised and discussed. This might help teachers (myself included, of course) prevent mistakes that could eventually lead to an undesired impact upon the students we're responsible for.

At the risk of sounding stupid again, I'd like to forward another question: If one is aware that a child has suffered a punishment that far exceeded what he/she deserved at the time, should one not apoligise? If so, how does one go about doing so? People very frequently run into their past teachers a few years down the line; if I can, I'd rather like this child to remember that he was given due care and consideration.

naboo · 9th May 2008, 04:25

From what I can gather, you had a student choking the chicken, bashing the bishop, whatever, over some website in your classroom and all you wanted to do was give him a lecture and make a joke of it? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if that was the case, the punishment needed to be a lot more harsh than you intended and good on the other teacher!

As for imposing ethics, religion etc in a classroom, I'm fundamentally against it. We have a student teacher at my place at the moment, I'm a science teacher, she's Muslim. During an evolution lesson we were team teaching she butted in with a load of crap about Allah and the 'truth'. Inside I went nuts, but managed to put on a professional face and completely destroyed her argument in front of the kids. There's also an Islamic Studies room that is full of bullshit about Allah being this and that, an R.E. room where that big Christian fish is shown eating a picture of Charles Darwin and a few teachers who punish students for not believing in God - not directly of course, but in a round about way. I hate it, but unfortunately there's no law to keep nutters, sorry, religious folk out of the classroom influencing kids.

Umbuku · 9th May 2008, 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan Gibbon

should one not apoligise? If so, how does one go about doing so?

About that punishment you received last month. I'm sorry about that. I didn't know the homeroom teacher would take it further.