Thread: Salaries and mindset in LOS

Originally Posted by machangezi

So your sub teachers have WPs then? And please remember I'm in touch with this lady.

A sub teacher's the one who they call early morning and ask if they're free and can do substitution. They're not on regular payroll. Why would the company get them working permit as they only replace for a day?

I'd assume to avoid them being arrested and locked up/deported???

Sub teachers don't have WP from us but they might be having one from their main employer.

Doesn't matter it won't cover them, they're breaking the law. I hope you've informed them of this? Or is that something they automatically know??? Or do they learn it now from reading my post?

For example, there're sub teachers at my former office who work for International school but when they're free they do replacements.

Illegally and also they'll be no tax paid so your company is also breaking the law. But then I suppose you knew this???

So it's so easy to be legit and everything here ain't it???

All of our regular female teachers have Work Permits. The one you're talking about has never been our regular teacher and thus no working permit.

Doesn't matter full or part time or one hour a week. They must by law have a work permit. So they realise they're taking a risk? You'd have though if what you said is true they'd have found a part time job that DID offer a work permit.....you know as it's soooo easy to get sorted here[/quote]

You can get a work permit earning nothing mate

My knowledge is very limited in this regard mate.
It should be possible as you're saying.

Yes, as the above shows mate.

Of course it's possible (charity work etc.).

But usually we read an English contract, but the one they often put in is Thai???

I'll tell you about the place I worked. All the documents are still in English. Not sure about the schools who offer direct contract to teachers.

So the ones that went to the MoE are in English not in Thai? Are you sure???

So your substitute teachers keep a hold of their contract?

Not at all, often they're changed as per above.

That's why I said "signatures of both parties either at the top or bottom of the page would always help. Also a copy must be kept with the teacher."

Like your sub teachers do?

In an ideal world, but most of the time that doesn't happen.

I mean you've only worked at one school so you're hardly an expert on any others are you???

Aren't you giving copies of contract to your foreign employees?
You're right! I'm no expert but IMO I did gain enough experience to talk about them. Anyone like Steve should have enough experience (as he's working for 2 years) and should be able to make wise decisions.[/quote]

No were not to be honest. Although yes they have a contract, but the one we send to the MoE is in Thai and a little bit different.

I know people that have been here longer than Stephen and know far less.

Not really a handful. Check the good schools against bad schools and it pretty obvious to most people.....something ain't quite right in Denmark.

Checking bad schools against good schools ain't an intelligent comparison mate.

But looking at how many teachers COMPLAIN about schools going back on their word as opposed to how many are good...obviously is an intelligent comparison and that is obviously what I meant!

Check bad schools against the total number of schools in LOS. That will definitely show that a handful of schools are in black area.

Not really as the teachers at those schools might not know of it. Doesn't really prove anything at all mate. My way makes far more sense if you think about it.

And it cost you money. She should have sent you an e-mail linking you to the law and you'd have had to have read that.

Yes it did cost me. She did offer help but it was me who declined her.

Like I said mate an e-mail link to the law would have solved that. Lucky you didn't get pulled or arrested really. And also lucky it was a relatively minor offence.

No it makes much more sense to let them break the law and be fined...doesn't it???

You and I both know Thai culture.

Yes that's what we're all saying. That Thai culture means it's HARD TO KNOW YOUR REAL OPTIONS because of potential loss of face and their habit of lying. That's what WE'RE ALL SAYING EXCEPT YOU!

Thais think it ain't good gesture to keep insisting when an elder / boss is reluctant to listen.

Mate you're not Thai so that's absolute bollocks. They no more respect you than the staff respect me here 'cos you ain't Thai and never will be. Jesus!

Maybe that's the reason she never had the courage to step forward and offer help again.

No it's probably 'cos that's the way things are done here, unless you hassle and hassle and hassle you'll not know your arse from your elbow.

Also you couldn't really have been the boss as you'd have had a WP as a teacher and thus were breaking the law in that respect (as many of us do). Yeah it's soooo easy isn't it???

So do everyone. NO?

No not everyone.

So again you're breaking a law...and yet you say it's so easy to be legit and earn a good wage here. You know by letting your feet do the walking....hard to do when you're in nick

So you admit you were stupid and didn't do as you should (though you'd been here for 3 years or so), but you're saying all the other newbie teachers should know everything when you yourself don't or didn't??? Again you're arguing against yourself and for me. Thanks!

I was discussing this issue with IJWT. He ain't a newbie mate.

You made a sweeping statement about ALL teachers. While your post might have been in response to Stephen, it's content was being applied to all teachers old and new. And yet as I've proved you don't know very much about the laws etc. here in Thailand.

So there we have it. Everyone else is wrong and you're right.

I can be wrong and I've been proven wrong.

Well it seems even when everyone is telling you you're wrong and even your posts are admitting you're wrong you still have to reply and reply and reply. You were and are wrong in what you said....so why not let it go?

Even though you've only worked at one school and they managed to have you break the law for three years and get fined!

Again, that was my fault.

No it was your employers fault as well. The girl could easily have told your superior, or e-mailed you.

But if you can mess up knowing everything....I'm sure others can as well. So obviously your initial point in saying it's easy for teachers here to avoid crap jobs and wages etc. is utterly flawed.

Added after 11 minutes:

Originally Posted by ajohny

Maybe I have been lucky but I can't say I have had much WP problems at any of the half-dozen r places I have worked except in non-teaching/managerial jobs here. I have taught at a few places that didn't pay all that well by I never tried it at one of the fly by night operations.

So you've worked at 30-40K a month teaching jobs here then?

I don't think the most prolific posters here really represent the majority of Teachers in Thailand.

I don't think any group of posters do chap.

Most I have run across are a pretty good bunch of guys and gals that enjoy being in Thailand for their own reasons,

For sure in person I never moan about lovely Thailand, I love it here. But it's nice to moan now and again on an anonymous board.

People are a lot different in 'real life' than tney are on here mate, it's naive to think they're not.

but there is at least one constant whiner in each place that continues to live in Thailand year after year without adjusting. These make up the majority of the regular posters here. I often get a laugh when our Thai colleagues open up and begin talking about these jokers, sometimes our colleagues forget they are Thai and really let loose with the insults.

And them whiners that whine about the whiners can get pretty annoying can't they???

Whether teaching in Thailand is a good deal or not is up to the individual to decide.

I don't know whether it's that it's a good deal or not per se, rather the fact that is could/should be improved. Then again even if it was perfect I'm sure people would find something to moan about.

There was actually a recent survey in Australia. More of those that earnt over a million a year complained that they were just getting by, and thought they needed more. Those that earnt less were generally more happy and content. Strange huh???

If you like it, fine, if you don't, either stop teaching or go somewhere else to teach. Why would anyone continue to do something they hate year after year?

Again you're taking things too simply. I like working here 70% of the time, but the other 30% I'm a bit peed off. But in the UK I only enjoyed working there 50% of the time.

Again too much black and white. I like my job etc. but there's certain things I don't like about it. Or maybe you managed to find your perfect job, if so good on you. But it's unfair to have a dig at others who haven't. You should be pleased for yourself mate and let people know how to achieve the same if it's so gosh darn easy to do so.

Successful people fit into the environment or find an environment that fits them.

They also put up with shit. Overcoming obstacles is also surely a successful trait....or is everything just a piece of cake for you when you're successful? It just all falls into place as if by magic. Nonsense of course it doesn't.

Successful people don't waste their lives complaining about things they have no control over.

I don't think anyone is wasting their lives mate, rather spending 10 or 20 minutes a day (if that) having a little moan. Similar to what you're doing about the people doing it here (so you yourself are in a way wasting your life away by complaining about the complainers...if you think about it?).

Ijustwannadostrangethings will never understand this and will continue to live in misery and continue to whine and complain with no results.

Yes, having blinkered vision makes far more sense....doesn't it? Burying your head in the sand is the way forward isn't it?

Maybe if he didn't spend so much of his free time staring at the navels of young Thai boys from a few inches away he could see the situation in a more balanced light.

Very nice mate. Why even bother with that shit if you're so fucking successful. Might be a success moneywise mate, but you're a fucking failure as a human it seems.

You're SOOOO COOL MAN! Bet you were a right little terror at school

Originally Posted by Unwell

i hope steven is suitably grateful for your help, advice and wisdom machangezi.

I would say it is a certainty that I am SUITABLY grateful for Macha, as long as that suitably is taken as literally as possible.

Um, Unwell, would you mind helping me by cleaning up that little off-topic slur against me up in Ajohny's post-before-last (and this request as well-)- this is the Staffroom, isn't it? Thanks in advance.

"Steven"

Is that so? Should I once again start talking about the Prophet's interest in his youngest wife? Point taken?

"Steven"

Added after 3 minutes:

Yeah, Ajohny is beginning to sound more and more like Pudgislime/Alien melon/Accident From Ajarn. Tirades of verbal abuse followed by mincing self-excuses "oh, I didn't mean to seem so insulting even though I was calling you names, it wasn't intended that way."

Get a real hobby, or some other kind of life. Do the things you claim to be doing on here (which I doubt have any basis in truth). You are pretty clearly a failed human being.

"Steven"

Originally Posted by machangezi

Let me make it simple. I've enjoyed working with my former employer and never had any bad experience like some posters claim. I was in contact with other 35+ schools and most of the foreign teachers (obviously with wp and tl etc) were happy with their job, except a few, and had all the essential information (that's what they always told me).

And who did these teachers work for? Direct with the school or through you lot???

Some of our teachers (only a few) were unhappy and left us and we're thankful to them for making a wise decision. At workplace employers can't keep everyone happy all the time. This is an undisputable fact.

I don't know mate the way you were initially posting you did give the impression that it's easy to find a perfect job.

So do your sub teachers have WPs then?

I'd rather spend time researching market situation than moaning about employers inefficiency if I ever wanted to apply for a certain job in some specific industry. I'd simply leave the company if I were not happy with the working environment etc.

Not always that easy mate if you need the money etc.? And it's nigh on impossible to research the market unless you physically go and work for ALL of the schools. Just checking the jobs page MEANS NOTHING!

I'd never blame employers for my inefficiency or ineffectiveness.

You already have here mate, albeit losely (Thai culture)

No it makes much more sense to let them break the law and be fined...doesn't it???

You and I both know Thai culture. Thais think it ain't good gesture to keep insisting when an elder / boss is reluctant to listen. Maybe that's the reason she never had the courage to step forward and offer help again.

I'd get all the details that I think is essential before signing any contract with employers.

The contract in English or the contract in Thai??? You've still not answered my questions in regards to this?

I believe most of employers, not all, want to keep employees for as long as possible cos they know high staff turn over leads to ineffectiveness and ultimately bankruptcy.

Yes, but the only other probably is they also want to make as much money as possible. So I'd disagree most schools aren't willing to pay the extra to keep good teachers as they know they can be pretty much replaced (albeit with someone who's maybe not as good) right away.

I'm thankful to all my past employers (Thailand or elsewhere) for their professionalism.

Maybe you've just been incredibly lucky, or have terribly low expectations.

Added after 22 minutes:

Originally Posted by ajohny

Ken,


I wasn't really referring to you. You seem to have a balanced view, some whining some satisfaction with life. A normal person.

Thanks mate!

"Burying your head in the sand is the way forward isn't it?"

No change yourself or your employment situation. This is something one has control over. If you don't like your current position, do something about it, don't whine about an entire industry in an entire country. You have no control of what the ESL industry in Thailand is like. What you do have control over is yourself.

But I don't like ANY work mate. I go through life weighing up if I'm more happy than not happy and take it from there.

But surely it's human nature to moan about the industry you're involved in (I've even head mega rich actors doing it). And if only 1% of the moans are listened to over a period of time there might be a change, even if it's ever so slight. And also the moaning can help the individual release some of the pent up unhappiness.

My home life is cool, but you know I still moan about my wife to my friends, I love my little kid.....but he pisses me right off sometimes.

Or maybe it's a Brit thing

Also on here the moaning can act in a way as to educate other newbies and inform them of the pissible pifalls of working here. Although it seems we can't win. We got ols Smeg saying we all say it's soooo nice here when it ain't, now we have you saying a lot of us moan when it's sooo nice here (or can easily be sooo nice if we give up our jobs and find a 'perfect' job (although I'd say it's best of a bad lot more often than not).

If you don't like your current career path, do something useful, like increase your skills and qualifications, start your own business, or look for new employment.

It is really that easy isn't it.

Sorry wife and son we're going to be living on the street for the next few months, oh and no food either 'cos I'm studying/setting up a business/selling my kidneys!

The world will not change to meet Ijustwannagetbangedinthebackside's or your or my wishes. We have to change to meet the world.

I agree to an extent. I've always said the same to be honest, but whinging/moaning doesn't mean you think you can change things (the opposite IMO), it usually means you're fed up with not being able to change things.....don't mean they don't exist and it don't mean you're more unhappy than you are happy. It just means you can see the bad things here and you talk about them, albeit in a negative tone. Most of us are resigned to the fact nowt can be changed....still there's no harm in having a little moan is there???

What has all the whining over all the years on this board resulting in? Has it helped me at all? No.

Yeah but darling you're SUCCESSFUL you don't need help. And I could also ask you what do you expect your moaning at the moaners to acheive (sp?)? It works both ways.

The moaning has probably stopped the odd person coming here and having a 'mare.

It's given people a heads up as to the possible problems/challenges they'll be facing here.

So while it might not have helped you, I'm sure it's helped some people. At the very least it's helped the moanee RELEASE some angst etc.

What has improving my skills and qualifications done for me? Well, I sure ain't rich and don't expect I am the envy of anyone but I do have a much more prestigious job and get paid about four times as much as I did starting out here in Thailand 7 years ago and I am not finished. I expect upon completion of my Ph.D. and the publication of a few academic articles I have written that have been approved for publication (but not out yet) I will take another step up the ladder. Hopefully the next step wouldn't be the last either, I have plans for the future. I probably will never achieve all my goals in life, that’s ok though.

Good for you.

But if you're so successful why are you moaning at less successful people for moaning? Don't successful people just get on with it and be you know....successful???

I never whined about my first job here, it didn't pay much but it was a good starting point.

Cool, but would it have been a big deal if you had?

I moved on, to bigger and better things, at least by my standards they are bigger and better and my standards are the only ones that matter to me.

Well done, I'm proud of you man.

The guys who were whining and crying about the school while I was there, many are still there, still whining and crying and still making three letter language school wages.

Yeah but you know what, in some ways I find the whingers less annoying than the people that post how easy it is to be a success here, and how successful they are and how everyone should be successful just like them. That's my pet peeve to an extent!

All their whining and crying has done them no good over the years except to turn them into bitter middle aged men. I chose a different path.

But if you've never done it how can you know this for a fact? Some of the unhappiest people I know are the one that say nothing.

As you chose a different path so do others, the path you're on might be good for you, but it might not suit me (damn it I LIKE to moan!).

As per my millionaires but not happy post.

I changed myself, to meet the environment and I am basically pretty happy in life except for this one pet peeve of mine about farang whiners living here.

So it's okay for you to have a pet peeve, but not others. Damn that's awfully selfish.

Maybe you need to change yourself again mate, as you seem pretty ruddy good at it
Cheers to all and to all a good night.

Just wanted to add, I don't think there is anything wrong with always not wanting to change jobs and feel the need to "advance," whatever that means.

For sure my ambition is the equivalent of a soft wet fart.

It is each of our choice how much effort we want to put into a career, and this has some effect on the ultimate success or lack of it we eventually have.

Not always the case here in Thailand IME. I've noticed some people get away with far less effort than others do. Which is also something worth moaning about

We are not toally in control of our destiny.

Err but that pretty much goes against your whole post? We are in control if we're willing to 'change' I thought you said? I'm all confused now!

All we can control is our effort and our attitude.

Right gotcha!

If I sometimes come across as insulting to others, it is not intended.

Well mate that dig at Steve couldn't really have been a typo...or did you phase out for a bit there chap??? Twilight Zone shit and that???

If someone is moderely happy with one's position in life, regardless of the position, great for you.

Finally, yes that's what most of us are saying. We're more happy than not happy, it's just that there's so many annoying things out there (shit I moan about Thai walking slowly in front of me and yet it only happens one or twice a week and yet I still moan about something as minor and pedantic as that!!!!1).

For me its the journey and effort that counts, more so than the actual results, since in the end, we all end up in the same situation.

Dead? You got a bit hippyish there towards the end (was the booze kicking in ).

Thanks Ken, you got my back!

Originally Posted by machangezi

I don't know mate the way you were initially posting you did give the impression that it's easy to find a perfect job.

IMO, it's easy to find reasonable job, not perfect. No place is perfect mate. Every place has its ups and downs. We should be flexible enough to adjust ourselves. You can change few things where you work but changing the whole culture ain't possible. One must change himself.

If you have to change so you are happily accepting a bad deal then it's obviously not a good place to work for mate. I think that's quite simple.

So do your sub teachers have WPs then?

My former employer do provide WPs to full time teachers. They don't hire part time or sub teachers.

So that's a NO then Good deal they're getting. No WP and a crappy day every now and again job. But as it's sooo easy to get good work I wonder why they put up with this???

Not always that easy mate if you need the money etc.? And it's nigh on impossible to research the market unless you physically go and work for ALL of the schools. Just checking the jobs page MEANS NOTHING!

IMO one can have an insight of current market situation by looking at ajarn job page and can figure out average salary, atleast I can. I didn't say that you can know if the emplyers are professional enough or not by looking at job page.

No not really as a lot of the jobs ads are utter bullshite mate. And some of the best jobs are on there.

You can figure out the supposed average salary, but it's probably incorrect.

Right so you can get to tell the wage, but not if they're professional? So if they're not professional there's a good chance they might be lying....which makes the salary suspect as well.

I think this is quite easy to work out.

You already have here mate, albeit losely (Thai culture)

No, I haven't. I can't blame anyone for my inefficiencies. It was my mistake and I admit it.

You blamed Thai culture chap and you ain't Thai It's there in black and white!

The contract in English or the contract in Thai??? You've still not answered my questions in regards to this?

Obviously in English mate. We even send the contracts in English and Thai to MoE (when applying for tl), MoL (when applying for wp) and Immigration (when extending the visa).

So again as you seem to be answering only when it suits you how much tax is paid each and every month as I assume the 50% drop in wages over the holidays will be taken into account (although I know it probably won't ).

Also only getting a 50% holiday pay 'bonus' is pretty crap isn't it? Not really a 'good' job per se? Just bettter than a lot of the other tat.

Yes, but the only other probably is they also want to make as much money as possible. So I'd disagree most schools aren't willing to pay the extra to keep good teachers as they know they can be pretty much replaced (albeit with someone who's maybe not as good) right away.

Whatever.

I'm pleased you agree with me.

Maybe you've just been incredibly lucky, or have terribly low expectations.

I've been lucky since the beginning mate. Don't worry about my expectations.

I will worry about your expectations if you're giving newbies and even current teachers here the WRONG idea of working here mate. It's not fair to them.

Added after 9 minutes:

But to put and end to this with you Macha as your stance is getting further and further away from what you initially said and I'm repeating myself due to you not answering certain questions!

Yes anyone and everyone can easily find a wicked job just by doing a bit of marker research on Ajarn. It really is THAT easy.



So next time you see people moaning just ignore them mate as it's obvious they're just fucking useless thickos who should fuck off back home or kiss some arse until they suddenly find this amazingly perfect (but not really perfect) job!

Originally Posted by kenkannif

Even when you're blatantly wrong you won't admit it! Pathetic really.


But to put and end to this with you Macha as your stance is getting further and further away from what you initially said and I'm repeating myself due to you not answering certain questions!

Yes anyone and everyone can easily find a wicked job just by doing a bit of marker research on Ajarn. It really is THAT easy.



So next time you see people moaning just ignore them mate as it's obvious they're just fucking useless thickos who should fuck off back home or kiss some backside until they suddenly find this amazingly perfect (but not really perfect) job!