between a rock and a hard place.

**Khun Nit Noi** · 2nd October 2005 11:11

Originally Posted by kenkannif

Originally Posted by Khun Nit Noi

Even though things seem to be tightening up in Thailand regarding fake degrees, it does not appear that up to now any individual found to be teaching with a fake degree has been held accountable other than being denied a work permit, black listed, etc.

I know of at least one chap that's been blacklisted here.

I was referring to the more severe forms of "accountability" currently being found in other countries:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/...45348&start=15

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/...er=asc&start=0

**kenkannif** · 2nd October 2005 11:17

^ Gotcha.

Well with the new verification ting, school owners could face a jail term (yeah right?) if they verify a fakie!

**lovinlife** · 2nd October 2005 12:47

Originally Posted by columbia

Silly question maybe to lovinlife but why on earth didn't you reject the moody degree from the printer because it was incorrect? Maybe then you wouldn't have this grief.

Your right! In short my fellow teacher went to Bankok and got it for me as he needed one too. Sadly when he got back and gave it to me, I saw immediately there was an error. Yeah I gave him sh*t big time for paying 2500 baht and not checking it over.

But the problem arises because my employer (Thai agent, who told me to get the fake degree in the first place), told me not to worry and that they won't notice it. After a debate about going back to get another one, he said not to waste my time, so I trusted his advice and left it at that.

I got a WP the first time round last year using this degree. I changed schools but stayed with his agency, and this time round they picked it up when applying for my new WP.

I have been good friends with my boss (agency) for 18 months now, done great work for him and also helped him out a lot when he's needed fill in teachers etc. He's always told how much he appriciated my efforts. But now he's been caught, overnight he has dumped me, I've lost my job, and they have shut the doors on me and say it's nothing to do with them.

Moral of the story......just when you think you can trust Thai people, when push comes to shove, they will leave you for dead. Maybe not the minority, but certainly the majority.
A big lesson learned on my part, and maybe a lesson learned for those out there that could be in a similar situation.

**Khun Nit Noi** · 2nd October 2005 15:35

Originally Posted by kenkannif

^ Gotcha.

Well with the new verification ting, school owners could face a jail term (yeah right?) if they verify a fakie!

The prospect of jail time does seem to be bothering some of them as there is more than one school that is attempting to weed out fake degrees.

In some countries (my example above) this kind of punishment is directed at both the holder of the fake degree and the employing institution. In the case of Thailand, I don't personally know of a case where a "teacher" has been held accountable to such a degree.

Time will tell if this will remain the norm.

**Milkman** · 2nd October 2005 15:59

In sum:

If Thailand wants teachers with a BA/BS and a TEFL Cert.

Wages will have to increase. And I am talking about a minimum 500 Baht per hour. And this, is not even very good. This is not going to happen.

I honestly believe this to be the case.

**Rocky** · 2nd October 2005 21:46

Millions of people every year leave behind loved ones and relocate to make a serious committment to improving their education and prospects. What makes the limp-wristed OP a special case?

Get on with it, you ponce.

**Rocky** · 3rd October 2005 00:44

The guy wanted straight advice. I gave it. What are you masterbating about? Getting off on reading my stuff are ya?

**columbia** · 3rd October 2005 12:52

I read in the BKK Post yesterday about the Khao San degree mill. IMHO there's a big difference between a guy with a genuine TEFL cert and a moody degree who just happened to get a job after leaving school rather than going on to further education and some Albanian straight off the plane who can barely string two English sentences together being placed in a school by some unscrupulous teaching agency with a fake degree/TEFL. A guy I knew a couple of years ago is now working with Human Resources in a household name company after working part time as their English teacher. His TEFL is legit but his degree is a fake. He's doing very well for himself because he's a good teacher and a hard worker. I reckon a TEFL plus an English cert. at High School level should be the minimum requirements and the MOE should observe demo lessons for all new teachers applying for a W/P. Weed out the dross.

**lovinlife** · 4th October 2005 09:47

Originally Posted by columbia

I read in the BKK Post yesterday about the Khao San degree mill. IMHO there's a big difference between a guy with a genuine TEFL cert and a moody degree who just happened to get a job after leaving school rather than going on to further education and some Albanian straight off the plane who can barely string two English sentences together being placed in a school by some unscrupulous teaching agency with a fake degree/TEFL. A guy I knew a couple of years ago is now working with Human Resources in a household name company after working part time as their English teacher. His TEFL is legit but his degree is a fake. He's doing very well for himself because he's a good teacher and a hard worker. I reckon a TEFL plus an English cert. at High School level should be the minimum requirements and the MOE should observe demo lessons for all new teachers applying for a W/P. Weed out the dross.

I agree columbia. I'm sick of people saying a degree (in any field) is a requirement to teach the English language. One here isn't teaching rocket science in a top university. It's important look at the reality of it.

If one had been speaking the English language for 33 years, completed a TEFL training course, and various other training certificates, and also has a whole host of work experiences as a middle manager for 12 years. IMHO I just can't see how some people believe I would be unfit to teach 12 year old kids my native language.

The whole uni degree thing in Thailand is simply the Thais wanting to show their prestige bullsh*t, as in everything else they do. As long as it looks good on the outside, forget about the true quality or legitimacy of it on the inside.

**Slim Chance** · 4th October 2005 10:39

The educational requirements to legally teach in Thailand are lower than most other countries. A degree may not be directly relevant to day-to-day teaching but a degree does show that a person has the ability and COMMITMENT to complete a substantial body of work over a meaningful amount of time.

I get a bit tired of people canning anything that comes out of universities - believe it or not, people DO learn things at universities and most have to work hard to attain a reasonable degree. Many degrees (attempt to) teach people how to think and open up wider body of knowledge and viewpoints. And it takes time, a substantial amount of time.

Now I'm not saying that you can't get that through other avenues of learning but at the end of the day, employers basically understand what a degree is and what it means. Other types of learning are more difficult to quantify.

I often wonder how many people who return to university and complete a degree consider it a waste of time after completing it. Maybe most do but I feel that most would think it a worthwhile experience.

**columbia** · 4th October 2005 12:00

I here you Slim Chance but IMHO the ability and commitment to complete a substantial body of work over a meaninful amount of time doesn't have much to do with teaching ESL in LOS. My degree is completely unrelated to ESL and I consider my maturity, professionalism and commitment acquired during my working career after uni to hold me in better stead than anything I learned between the ages of 18 and 22 studying my BA. I know countless people back home who are very successful in their chosen career without the benefit of attending uni. I think what I want to say is that a genuine TESL cert should be the benchmark. If the Thai MOE seriously want to improve the standards of teaching here they shouldn't do something as lame as "prove your degree is legit" That's just being idle. The worst teacher I ever observed was a Ph.d. As I mentioned in a previous post the MOE needs to start observing demos of prospective teachers. I don't know the OP but if his TEFL is legit then he should at least be competent in the class. These inspections would at least separate a teacher with TEFL but no degree who can teach from an Eastern European on the run operating on dodgy certification. In the past one of my jobs in LOS was to observe demo lessons from prospective teachers at a school. Give me a 20 minute demo of a partial lesson and I'll soon sort the wheat from the chaff. In the case of an Albanian scammer on moody documentation give me 60 seconds and I'll know the score. The MOE needs to get their fingers out of their arses and actually get in the classroom where the teachers are teaching. There are some damn fine teachers in their 30s out there with a 4 week TEFL and an O level in geography! :smile:

**keegan** · 4th October 2005 17:38

good post columbia.
but what about the tefl courses on offer?
i had been teaching for 3 years without a tefl. thought i'd better get one. sunbridge international(don't know if i can name them or not?) found on the net. impressive site. 12,000 baht. study at your own pace. blah blah blah. sent my money. waited for the first set of lessons. got my tefl cert. in the mail.
also have to question the standard of some of the local tefl bodies.
seems they are like thai schools. you can't fail.
what is the answer? i don't know.

:chug:
i do have a degree in english. (forget to mention that. sorry)

**columbia** · 5th October 2005 12:32

I will say I've observed about 10 people from local TEFL institutes (T and T and TEFL International). Some posters knock these 4 week TEFL courses (how can you become a teacher in 4 weeks etc?) but they must be doing something right because (despite having never taught in their lives before the courses) at the very least they were competent in the classroom and 1 guy was very impressive. Of course these courses can't give you the same as diploma in education for X number of years but they give you a start to at least know what is expected of a teacher in the classroom vis a vis planning a lesson etc. Before I was a teacher if someone had put a gun to my head and said "what's present continuous" then they would have had to pull the trigger. When I began to teach a little while with a grammar book and it's all clear. When it comes to teaching it takes is a bit of common sense and effort. Don't know the difference between active and passive? Look it up. There are countless resources for teachers on the internet. The skill is breaking it down so the students understand as well. That comes with practise and experience. At least a local TEFL will give you that "springboard" I've seen teachers with MA TESOLS and all sorts of English qualifications and at the level most of us teach in LOS I have to say (from observing countless demos etc) there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between them and a 4 week TEFL-er. ( No names no pack drill but in one case where I was an observer a 4 week TEFLers demo lesson was plagiarised wholesale by an MA TESOL bloke for his demo at another training day)

DISCLAIMER. I don't want to sound like the Thai TEFL course version of a timeshare salesman so please note I wouldn't know Bruce from TEFL International or Leigh from T and T if they walked up to me in the street.

**lovinlife** · 6th October 2005 10:55

Just to give you the outcome of my situation and to finalise the debate. I now have a new job in a school that has welcomed me with open arms, knowing full well I have no uni degree. They were more than happy with my TEFL and the experience I carry over the last 12 years, and the last 2 years teaching experience.

This shows that a degree in any field is not a requirement in ALL cases so long as you can prove your ability. I was worngfully dismissed from my job and the teachers at my old school are I think, now regretting their descision.

I will now go to my new school and give my all like I have in the past and give the kids a great experience.

Thailand needs to wake up to it's own laws and get it's sh*t together. If their going to demand the highest standards then must be competative in rewarding the standards they set. IMHO they need to set a fair multy teared system which rewrads people on their individual education and experience, not a degree alone. But unfortunately it will more than likely be a long time coming and they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot.