PGCE Possibilities

**aridion** · 27th July 2012 22:41

I definitely think that English and History would be better subjects.

I don't know how popular R.E is in the UK to be honest, however I don't see how R.E can develop critical thinking skills. I would say that a lot of R.E would teach the opposite. I guess it depends on the teachers take on R.E.

**exprat** · 28th July 2012 16:42

What do you base that on? There are three times the number applicants for English PGCE than there are for R.E. and when I spoke to Oxford Brookes they explained they would not consider any applicants who do not have a first degree in English due to the fact that they are already heavily oversubscribed.

Getting on to a course is one thing and then getting a job is another.

R.E., Philosophy and Applied Ethics are all about critical thinking skills.

R.E. is no longer teachings kids the fundamental doctrines of Christianity and a couple of other world religions; most R.E. departments are staffed by Atheists and the current syllabus promotes religious diversity and includes arguments against the existence of God.

I observed one department several months ago and the lesson began with "What do you understand the word 'good' to mean?" ... "What is 'good'?" The kids ended up talking about jurisprudence and the fate of drug dealers, etc. - the teacher was really challenging the kids but the kids were also keeping the teacher on his toes.

You are probably thinking of R.E. a quarter of a century ago. The type of R.E. I studied. I am not sure about the situation in so-called "faith schools".

---Update---

I am sending the following to Int. Schools to survey their requirements:

Dear Sir/ Madam,

This is a request for information relating to recruitment matters.

I am a university tutor planning to retrain as a Secondary school teacher. I would like to ask you *about your ongoing hiring needs according to subject area. Please outline your needs in terms of the following: English/ English Literature, History, Religious Education (incl. Applied Ethics, Philosophy, Citizenship, Humanities and Theory of Knowledge).

I am likely to retrain by taking the PGCE in R.E. course in the UK but it would be very helpful to know how useful this would be in relation to the job market in Thailand.

**newringo** · 28th July 2012 18:13

Hi Exprat, I think that a busy admin at an international school is not thatlikely to reply to your proposed question; they don't even contact all thepeople applying for jobs that actually exist.
How useful is a PGCE in RE? Look on the TES and other job sites to see if thereare/have been jobs advertised for RE teachers in international schools. Look atthe TES forums and the ISR site maybe for posts by RE teachers.
In my experience, there is no demand for RE in Thailand. If you say you have nointerest in teaching anything else then you are probably restricting yourselfto working outside Thailand, maybe even just the UK. Check it out for yourselfof course, just don't put yourself through the stress of a PGCE without doingso.

**aridion** · 28th July 2012 19:05

Originally Posted by exprat

You are probably thinking of R.E. a quarter of a century ago. The type of R.E. I studied

I am thinking about this. Only because I have observed a few R.E classes in British schools over the last year. However, that was in Primary.

**takecare** · 28th July 2012 23:09

EAP work at a UK university sounds like a very cushy job to me. Was it difficult to get? What qualifications are required? All the positions I see advertised are for 2-4 month pre-sessional summer jobs. Are there many permanent jobs available?

**exprat** · 28th July 2012 23:55

EAP is not cushy, it's hard work. But it's nice to work at a university and the pay can reasonably good, depending on where you work, I guess. EAP jobs are easier to get in the summer and you just need to get your foot in the day with your first job and then build from there - having taught IELTS helps. You need a DELTA, really, and/ or MA (TESOL/ Applied Linguistics). I only have a BA but I am on my fourth EAP job now so that is why.

Permanent jobs are fewer and harder to come by. A BA and DELTA + exp. would be the minimum requirement but a lot of teachers will have BA, DELTA, MA TESOL and perhaps even a PGCE as well.

**ttompatz** · 29th July 2012 07:52

Originally Posted by exprat

I am likely to retrain by taking the PGCE in R.E. course in the UK but it would be very helpful to know how useful this would be in relation to the job market in Thailand.

I can tell you that this alone would put you at the bottom of the pile when I, as someone who does the hiring of staff, am looking for staff.

There is no call, that I am aware of, for it as a subject in schools in Asia (other than as included in the Thai curriculum as it relates to Buddhism in Thai schools). The same is true of History as a subject.

If you want to get into something with a future.... then look at mathematics, any of the physical sciences, I.T., even business related stuff (accountancy, marketing, etc.). There is a dearth of people qualified to teach these subjects.

If you want to stay in demand in the market then look at the ASEAN frameworks and job portability within ASEAN after 2015. That is where the demand will lie for non-Thai subject matter teachers.

.

**zeusbheld** · 29th July 2012 09:37

^
good shout on the impending ASEAN state of affairs. as far as credentials go, what are the prospects for credentialed art teachers? most international schools seem to offer art, but when i look at the pics of the staff in mid-tier and lower-tier international schools, i see quite a few Filipino art, music and drama teachers.

also, you specified the physical sciences. does this imply that you don't see biology as being one of the high-demand short-supply subjects, or are you making a distinction between 'hard' sciences and the social sciences (which to my eye hardly count as sciences at all)?

the other area i'm curious about is instructional technology. there are several accredited M.Ed programs and D.Ed programs in instructional technology. in principle i'd imagine this is more administrator oriented than teacher oriented, but are schools focusing enough on technology to hire such people?

**exprat** · 29th July 2012 14:32

There is 0 chance of me retraining to be a Science, Maths or IT teacher. Therefore, I want to ask certified teachers, what good would having a PGCE do me? It would enhance my prospects in the EAP market to a certain/ small degree, I could of course work in the UK, and after that ... ?

Working in schools in the UK for 2-3 years is about as much as I could handle. Would a PGCE help me get into academic management in TEFL in Thailand?

Maybe I should be looking at Australia. I need to go somewhere hot, preferably near Thailand.

**haltest** · 29th July 2012 19:16

What do you base that on? There are three times the number applicants for English PGCE than there are for R.E. and when I spoke to Oxford Brookes they explained they would not consider any applicants who do not have a first degree in English due to the fact that they are already heavily oversubscribed.

The same is true for history. There are many graduates in English and history that want to go in teaching so they require a degree (or at least 50% of a degree) in that subject. FYI I did study jurisprudence and the history of law as subjects on my degree and I would not have been able to get onto a history PGCE.

IT and business for a PGCE can be a bit more forgiving at taking work experience on board more but you still need a degree in a subject that is relevant. My degree is in law and wanted to business so I chose to do a post graduate certificate in Business and Management just to make sure I fulfilled the knowledge requirements for my course.

Personally I think you can do a PGCE is MFL or train to teach primary where is does not matter what subject your original degree was in or you can do a course to upgrade your knowledge and try for a PGCE is a subject like history or English.

Remember English /Maths / Science / IT are compulsory subjects and there is always demand for them, students have to do history OR geography so these also have demand. Business seems to be quite sought after due to its more vocational bent and economics is not wanted much in the UK but is wanted a lot at international schools.

Not many students do Religious studies or sociology / psychology etc so you are always going to be chasing a much smaller pool of jobs and might have to be able to teach other subjects too. The problem for you is that your degree is in MFL and I don't think many headteachers would be willing to take a gamble on you being able to deliver Religious Studies lessons as you don't have the academic background.

EAP stuff is good and it is what I spent most of my TEFL career teaching, especially teaching IELTS and thesis / report writing. EAP is rewarding and stimulating and not many teachers can do it well so it can be a nice little niche market for the right teachers.

A PGCE is not going to help you in Thailand to progress in the TEFL arena, if you want to do something, then the British Council like to see a DELTA or you could do an MA Tesol or something of that type which might help you. To be honest, most employers in Thailand don't care too much about these qualifications, they like to see a degree and some experience and that will more often than not get you the job.

**exprat** · 30th July 2012 01:01

Yeah but the jobs are crap and you soon hit a ceiling and get stuck in a rut.

Couldn't I do an R.E. PGCE and learn to teach History on the side, and then present this to Int. schools as evidence that I (a) have a PGCE and (b) can teach History? It would be easier than getting on to a History PGCE course and I would probably study harder, I would have thought.

I have a friend who is academic manager in a big tefl firm and he used to be a Maths teacher. I was thinking that the PGCE indirectly bolstered his profile as a teacher. It's just the impression I had.

I definitely do not want to teach primary AND I would rather die than teach Italian with French (which would mean going back and studying French in any case).

I think my only options/ interests are R.E., History or English (Secondary) and the smart money seems to be on me getting on to an R.E. PGCE course. I could do Business Studies, as I have half a degree in this, but it wasn't a subject that I particularly enjoyed.

**haltest** · 30th July 2012 07:01

In theory you could do anything. Once you have a PGCE in anything then you could be called upon to teach lots of different subjects if you can convince the Head teacher or Head of Department....

In practice however, it is impossible for you to get onto a PGCE History course. Believe me, I did try with a law degree in which I did study some historical modules and the universities I approached were unbending in the need to have a degree in History (or at least 50% of a degree in history). For English, you need at least 50% of a degree in the subject as well. And it is the same for business (although they might consider work experience a bit more than the other subjects).

It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself into doing the RE thing, and yes you might find a PGCE provider to take you on for RE but you have zero background academically in this subject and you are always going to be at a disadvantage when competing with any other candidate who does have a degree in religious studies or at least 50% of their degree in Religious studies and who also has their PGCE.

I know it is frustrating, I think your best bet would be to upgrade your qualifications (do an MA History to open up that possibility) or stick with MFL or Business Studies as your first option and then try to add more subjects as you go once you have your PGCE and QTS. There is also the option of doing some IB courses after any PGCE to open up that market as well if you want to branch out overseas.

Remember that PGCE courses are nearly always over-subscribed and that in spite of the fact that there are course fees of 9,000 pounds to find to do the course and you also need to be able to support yourself financially for that year, universities have little trouble filling courses.

The final option would be to try and get a job at a school next year for School Centred Initial Teacher Training (or whatever it is going to be called in 2013) which will replace the Graduate Trainee Programme and see if you can learn while you get paid as an unqualified teacher and qualify that way.

**exprat** · 30th July 2012 22:06

I can potentially get on to a PGCE in R.E. course if I do some undergrad modules in the subject via DL. This was what I was told by Exeter, which is a very good course, apparently. I'm sure the same is true (i.e. possible) of History departments too, but much less so. However, the HoD did explain that I would more than likely need to get the complete award to land a job. A Masters would therefore be a better bet but a lot of courses won't take you on to do a Masters without a first degree in the subject, so ...